• CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Drahkar wrote:

The Insurance EXPLOIT

My knowledge of Perpetuum's insurance mechanics is very limited because I only used it to reduce my losses when dying in PvP, never making an actual profit from it since all my bots were obviously fitted with modules. What I have heard of after the punitive actions is that A SMALL PORTION of the insurance FRAUDers were also using an EXPLOIT to increase their insurance payout. By selling a bot (for example a Kain) back and forth to eachother for a ridiculously high price (for example 100 millions NIC), they would influence the game's insurance system into thinking that the average price that the bot was being sold for was much higher than it really is. This EXPLOIT increased the insurance payout and allowed people to make an much larger UNINTENDED profit from the otherwise legit insurance FRAUD.

Wouldn't most of the money being gained be lost in trade fee's? I guess if you were going to do this on a massive scale to get the price high and then blow them all up... but the pricing is done on an average over 2 weeks i believe?

As long as the transaction fee's are raping enough and the average price is long enough I don't see the issue really. But i haven't really thought this out and I need more coffee.. Off to the kitchen.

GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard
  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

GLiMPSE wrote:
Dromsex wrote:

Yes im talkingh of direct communication: dont spread it and keep it to a minimum.

That's a 50 dkp minus...

Damn, why didn't I get some points.....

Glimpse hates me, damn...

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

153 Reply by GLiMPSE (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-02-14 22:12:08)

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:
Dromsex wrote:

Yes im talkingh of direct communication: dont spread it and keep it to a minimum.

That's a 50 dkp minus...

Damn, why didn't I get some points.....

Glimpse hates me, damn...

You're not trolly enough. I actually considered it -- but you're posts are too well written, accurate and unbiased.

GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard
  • SK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Drahkar wrote:

...is one big borg collective where if one is guilty, everyone else is aswell.

Thats why you better watch out who youre playing with. DEVs have handeled this very solid - normally in any other game - any suspect would loose his acc immediately.

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

GLiMPSE wrote:

Wouldn't most of the money being gained be lost in trade fee's? I guess if you were going to do this on a massive scale to get the price high and then blow them all up... but the pricing is done on an average over 2 weeks i believe?

As long as the transaction fee's are raping enough and the average price is long enough I don't see the issue really. But i haven't really thought this out and I need more coffee.. Off to the kitchen.

I'm speaking to people about it and some say the exploit part did not even happen, and was perhaps only attempted (without success). I still wanted to clarify a few facts and explain why a lot of honest players are discouraged by the unprofessional manner the devs went about this. Anyone who came from Eve (no one can deny there are a lot) will obviously think the insurance FRAUD part is not even against the rules.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

156 Reply by Hidden Carrot (edited by Hidden Carrot 2011-02-14 22:21:29)

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Isn't using game mechanics in ways they aren't ment for exploits? I don't care who did it. When i think "insurance", I don't mean "easy way to get money" but "stuff that helps me get back on my feet".

I agree that the insurance payout should be dynamic, but based on something different that average price. OR use average price but only to a certain point i.e. : cap sequer insurance at 1mil.

/edit 1600 sequers on the market? Coincidence?

157 Reply by Drahkar (edited by Drahkar 2011-02-14 22:31:50)

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Hidden Carrot wrote:

Isn't using game mechanics in ways they aren't ment for exploits? I don't care who did it. When i think "insurance", I don't mean "easy way to get money" but "stuff that helps me get back on my feet".

I agree that the insurance payout should be dynamic, but based on something different that average price. OR use average price but only to a certain point i.e. : cap sequer insurance at 1mil.

/edit 1600 sequers on the market? Coincidence?

Drahkar wrote:

Fact 2.
A significant number of people who play this game also play or have played the very similar game Eve Online. Eve Online has a nearly identical insurance system which is why this is relevant.

Fact 3.
In the previously mentionned Eve Online, insuring a ship (equivalent of a bot in Perpetuum) and then blowing it up to receive the insurance payout is where the term Insurance FRAUD originated. It is NOT against the rules in Eve Online as it is a self balancing system. It is self balancing because the payout is usually slightly lower than the mineral cost of the ship but when the mineral cost goes down, people commit insurance FRAUD for a while until the mineral prices go up again and insurance FRAUD becomes unprofitable again. The profit made from this activity in Eve Online can be considered insignificant compared to the game's entire economy.

Fact 4.
People coming from Eve Online (and many of those who don't) cannot GUESS that insurance FRAUD is against the rules here. They are in fact very likely to assume that it is NOT. Just like they would be likely to assume that offering to triple someone's NIC and then breaking their promise is ALLOWED unless the opposite is mentionned in the rules somewhere.

You can't expect people to guess that something they've seen as normal and legitimate for years is considered an exploit here. That's like making an MMO where you can kill people but it's against the rules, then expecting people from every other MMO to be aware of it even though it's not written anywhere. You're supposed to tell people what the rules are.

Insurance fraud is illegal in real life but so is shooting at someone to take their loot, so real life is not a valid reference. Eve Online is the obvious one, with both games being extremely similar including their insurance systems. No surprise that someone coming from a game where the EXACT same mechanic is NOT considered an exploit would assume as much here unless the rules were actually written. Pretending that it was obvious is pathetic.

You can keep repeating the same lines but that would just show that you did not read my original post (or ignored it) because it contains information that makes your conclusion invalid.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR
  • TM-UAS
  • Forum moderator
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

*topics merged*

if you want to talk about he insurance isse - do it in this topic

Forum Rule #5
Pyramid quoting, quoting excessive amounts of text or quoting without any senseful reply is forbidden. Only quote that is necessary to show what your reply refers to.
  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Recognizer wrote:

*topics merged*

if you want to talk about he insurance isse - do it in this topic

Fair enough -- this way it looks less obtrusive when people thinking about joining the game look on the forums.

GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard

160 Reply by Hidden Carrot (edited by Hidden Carrot 2011-02-14 22:40:32)

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

"An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers"

It was exploited and people got punished.

I read the post and I only partly agree with it. I am not an EVE player. You are talking about a similar game but by a different developer with different goals. People told the devs about this exploits "months" ago, and when the devs struck ("finally after months of reports" one say, other "pretty quick in this type of game" (at this point I am thinking about an exploit which was in eve for years as other people told me, something about ferryt duping or something like that) everyone is shocked and angry of their lost belongings, most of whoare the same people.

161 Reply by GLiMPSE (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-02-14 22:47:28)

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Hidden Carrot wrote:

"An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers"

It was exploited and people got punished.

I read the post and I only partly agree with it. I am not an EVE player. You are talking about a similar game but by a different developer with different goals. People told the devs about this exploits "months" ago, and when the devs struck ("finally after months of reports" one say, other "pretty quick in this type of game" (at this point I am thinking about an exploit which was in eve for years as other people told me, something about ferryt duping or something like that) everyone is shocked and angry of their lost belongings, most of which are the same people.

Well next time I see someone make a mistake on placing something on the market for to little I will make sure and not buy it for fears that I may be exploiting the market.

After all, it was a design flaw for them to be able to mistakenly put something up below the market average.

Laughable how naive you are pretending to be.
*edit* Offensive. - DEV Zoom

Let me put the facts out once again... as simple as I can:

1. DEVS were told of the issue.
2. DEVS said it was ok.
3. We profited greatly
4. People whined
5. We profited notsogreatly anymore.

If the DEV's considered it an exploit back at step 1... why didn't they say so then?

GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard
  • IRS
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Is AC responsible for differentiating themselves from CCP's policy regarding insurance fraud? Maybe so. I know alot of players who had never heard of EVE until they started this game.

For the collateral damage that affected "innocent" bystanders, I hope that is addressed individually and rectified.

For the systematic fraudsters claiming that it was apparently as legitimate a way to earn NIC as selling ore, get real roll. The inherent assumption that goes along with that is that you are simply smarter than the majority of the server who *chose* not to take that risk. It wasn't obviously an exploit. It was obviously a gray area.

If you put all your eggs in one basket and got reamed, welp.

This move was good PR and terrible PR by the devs at the same time.

163 Reply by Hidden Carrot (edited by Hidden Carrot 2011-02-14 22:50:19)

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

I would rather be a *** than call people names in a discussion. Nice chatting with you.

/last edit They said (and probably though) that it was working as intended until someone went out of proportion and they saw it wasn't

164 Reply by Krupp

  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Drahkar wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:

Wouldn't most of the money being gained be lost in trade fee's? I guess if you were going to do this on a massive scale to get the price high and then blow them all up... but the pricing is done on an average over 2 weeks i believe?

As long as the transaction fee's are raping enough and the average price is long enough I don't see the issue really. But i haven't really thought this out and I need more coffee.. Off to the kitchen.

I'm speaking to people about it and some say the exploit part did not even happen, and was perhaps only attempted (without success). I still wanted to clarify a few facts and explain why a lot of honest players are discouraged by the unprofessional manner the devs went about this. Anyone who came from Eve (no one can deny there are a lot) will obviously think the insurance FRAUD part is not even against the rules.

If you own the outpost you will only loose 0.5% on tax, rest will return to your corp wallet. Thats why you  always saw the sequers up in Nauwy outpost.

165 Reply by Euphoric (edited by Euphoric 2011-02-14 22:52:54)

  • IRS
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

GLiMPSE wrote:

1. DEVS were told of the issue.
2. DEVS said it was ok.


This is a big problem. I'm assuming you spoke with actual DEVS, not GMs. My first impression is that this is a miscommunication among the DEV team that has since been glossed over.


If someone had a screenshot of this conversation, it would go a long way towards validating that claim. Or at least which dev, was it on vent, etc, etc.

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Hidden Carrot wrote:

I would rather be a *** than call people names in a discussion. Nice chatting with you.


Fair enough. Have fun on the short bus.

GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard
  • SK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

I cant stand the lies in here - people were told to keep the exploit for themselves and to keep usage to a minimum.

They should ban all you guys right away.

  • GG
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Oh yeah, they should ban all of infestation right away. Coincidentally, that would help with your little pesky roaming gangs problem.

Annihilator said: Walking careless onto hokko without masking is like jumping into a bathtub with the hungry 30cm piranhas (infestation)
GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard
  • SK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Thats not a problem Hecke, thats the game. You exploited big time and are dumb enough to think it isnt an exploit. srsly get off.

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

I cant stand the lies in here - people were told to keep the exploit for themselves and to keep usage to a minimum.

They should ban all you guys right away.

Did we blow up one of your mechs?

GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard

171 Reply by Heckle (edited by Heckle 2011-02-14 23:03:20)

  • GG
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

I exploited nothing, and nor did my corp.

Edit: I did exploit, easy kills on Norhoop.

Annihilator said: Walking careless onto hokko without masking is like jumping into a bathtub with the hungry 30cm piranhas (infestation)
GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard

172 Reply by Arga

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Crafting an Item and selling it to a vendor is a time honored MMO tradition.

In most cases the price the NPC offers is much lower than you could sell it for on the auction house, and always less than the cost of the materials.

If you gather your materials however, you still make a positive gold profit when selling to the vendor.

The formula for pricing the buy value is usually based on the effort to produce, but is always significantly lower than what any player thinks is fair.

The difference is those prices are FIXED.

Here, the game tries to be fair by using a dynamic payout formula. The problem is they didn't take into account server player base, which resulted in an abundance of resources and a lack of bot destruction.

As long as anyone was willing to accept less NIC for materials than they could get on the market, and the insurance payout exceeded the fixed production costs, there would always be profit in build'n-bash.

Its really only Fraud because the dev's did not intend Insurance to be an NPC vendor to sell bot over production to.

And I fully believe they where overlooking small scale fraud because on the whole insurance does promote more PVP which is what they are trying to do.

I have now said the same thing 5 times. Just let me be the last in the thread and I'll stop... I will win 'last post'!!

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

Thats not a problem Hecke, thats the game. You exploited big time and are dumb enough to think it isnt an exploit. srsly get off.

Maybe you should get off... the internet? You seem upset.

GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard
  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

You exploited big time

This is part of the problem. Really? Are you reffering to Heckle? He didn't exploit at all. Apparently we're dealing with conspiracy theorists who think that there are no individuals in an alliance, and that it's one big collective to be guilty by association.

It was already bad enough that those who DID blow up bots for the insurance payout were not breaking any rules at all.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR
  • SK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Insurance action

Im not refering to anyone in specific - but the ones trying to spin things around that are clear since beta.