76 Reply by Campana (edited by Campana 2011-02-14 01:25:20)

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Re: Insurance action

So basically the devs were warned, extensively, before they even implemented insurance, that this would happen. They ignored that. It happened for months. They ignored that.

Then suddenly they retroactively declared it an exploit, acted as if use of insurance to make NIC was a surprise to them, and removed NIC from the game in an attempt to compensate.

They did not do a sufficiently in-depth investigation to understand which characters and accounts benefited from this and removed NIC from players who had not been involved. Then they posted an incomplete list of corps involved.

Very unprofessional, and very badly handled.

I hope they get better at community management in future.

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Bernard Suits, 1978
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Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

No, of course not LA. You used the insurance in an unintended way. There doesnt need to be a law against this ;D These ingame/eula rules are not there for legal reasons but to ease up the process - but of course they are not needed in a game...

They should have banned you all right away - hopefully this will still come.

Don't be silly. I read somewhere that field containers for mining were considered a "soft exploit" i.e. a game mechanic used in a way not originally intended by the devs (source). Does this mean people who use field containers should be banned?

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
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Re: Insurance action

Campana wrote:

So basically the devs were warned, extensively, before they even implemented insurance, that this would happen. They ignored that. It happened for months. They ignored that.

Then suddenly they retroactively declared it an exploit, acted as if use of insurance to make NIC was a surprise to them, and removed NIC from the game in an attempt to compensate.

They did not do a sufficiently in-depth investigation to understand which characters and accounts benefited from this and removed NIC from players who had not been involved. Then they posted an incomplete list of corps involved.

Very unprofessional, and very badly handled.

I hope they get better at community management in future.

This is a pretty solid summary right here.  The part I don't like is that no representative from AC said at the time this issue was raised that this would be considered an exploit.  The issue was breached, discussion was had, and no official statement by AC was made.  Silence means acceptance in my opinion when a issue is put in front of you on your own public forums.

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Re: Insurance action

Nobody needs to explain anything - thats the funny part. If you do something that isnt intended by the DEVs, they can do whatever they want.

Apart from that - insurances have a clear real life copunterpart - so intended use is a no brainer.

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Re: Insurance action

Campana wrote:
Dromsex wrote:

No, of course not LA. You used the insurance in an unintended way. There doesnt need to be a law against this ;D These ingame/eula rules are not there for legal reasons but to ease up the process - but of course they are not needed in a game...

They should have banned you all right away - hopefully this will still come.

Don't be silly. I read somewhere that field containers for mining were considered a "soft exploit" i.e. a game mechanic used in a way not originally intended by the devs (source). Does this mean people who use field containers should be banned?

No, but they could!

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Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Crosshair wrote:

Please CRY EVEN MORE .

Try to twist the truth in every possible way to try to convince people that you are poor victims.

The usual tools of cheaters and frauds.

I luv comments like this...it shows that despite 6.5 million years of hominid evolution, that many people still do not know how to use a brain.

Here are the facts people:
.

As I said, cheaters and frauds twist the truth trying to convince people that they are the poor victims.

YOU GOT CAUGHT face it !!!

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Re: Insurance action

People knowingly cheat then complain when they're punished for it...

Ok then...

Why not just man up and accept that you did wrong? Or is it the Dev's fault that you can't control yourself or think about consequences?

I guess if you're trully innocent and genuine and your NIC got wiped then you have every right to complain though, I'm just finding it hard to believe anyone that says that.

83 Reply by DTC (edited by DTC 2011-02-14 01:35:26)

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Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Dromsex wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

There was not exploit or fraud.  Because there was no rule / requirement / procedure that it violated.  There was no hack, becuase someone did not use out of game mechanics to affect in game performance.  The only ones that are at fault here are the Devs, everything else was done according to the at the time published game rules and functionality.  Corrective Action at this point would be to declare it an exploit, create a mechanic to prevent it, and publish it in an easily referable source, such as an Exploit Forum or list, and state from this point forward, it is not allowed.  To retroactively punish people for something that was not a violation prior to that point is inherently wrong, logically, and ethically.

Thats simply not true. Something is an exploit as soon as it gets someone an unintended advantage. Declared or not. No need of hacks, bugs or declarations.

If u use the insurance to make money by intentionally blowing the insured item up - you dont use the insurance to insure yourself against pityful losses, but to actively gain money.

And by this you do something not intended. And by that you exploit. End of story.


Nope, wrong.  First question that no one has answered - what requirement does it violate?  Until you can answer that, there is no violation. Period.

EDIT:  You can not prosecute someone for an activity if it does not violate a law.  You cannot claim someone violated a rule or requirement, if no requirement or rule exists to cover that issue.  A general rule that could be applied to cover unanticipated situations still has to have some criteria to which it applies.  Until you can show such a rule / requirement, you cannot state that anyone violated anything.

Is it the first time you play an MMO ? You're not IRL here. Everyone who's a little bit experienced knows that is an exploit for sure. This kind of situation happened in many games.
Dromsex is right. it's just obvious it's an exploit. How can u imagine that making benefits buy insurancing ur own bot and blowing it up is not ???
You're not stupid, so don't fake it please.

84 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-02-14 01:38:17)

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Re: Insurance action

Wipe the game. Restart it. Corruption runs too deep. It's spreading.. Get out.. While.. You.. Still.. can..... *Blagh*

P.s. I'd love another account reset. More focusing again is needed. Heavy made 1 day old characters raping newbies. yarr

The Game

85 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-14 01:44:56)

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Re: Insurance action

Crosshair wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Crosshair wrote:

Please CRY EVEN MORE .

Try to twist the truth in every possible way to try to convince people that you are poor victims.

The usual tools of cheaters and frauds.

I luv comments like this...it shows that despite 6.5 million years of hominid evolution, that many people still do not know how to use a brain.

Here are the facts people:
.

As I said, cheaters and frauds twist the truth trying to convince people that they are the poor victims.
YOU GOT CAUGHT face it !!!

Actually, I got punished for something i did not do - my NIC was removed, when I never personally did any insurance.  My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it.  No trasfers from anyone other than small tips for helping ppl out. 

So, still not using that brain... go back, read posts, study the data, and try and say something intelligent.

BTW, when I got ahold of the Devs and GM, and went thru the situation with them, I got my Nic returned.  My complaint here is how it was handled, and communicated, and anyone, you included, could be the victum of that in the future. 

Only one I see here twisting facts and data, or rather ingoring it, is you.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!
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Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Only one I see here twisting facts and data, or rather ingoring it, is you.

Sorry if I offend cheaters and frauds.

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Re: Insurance action

I understand, you're innocent.

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Re: Insurance action

Crosshair wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Only one I see here twisting facts and data, or rather ingoring it, is you.

Sorry if I offend cheaters and frauds.

Obvious troll is obvious..

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Re: Insurance action

GLiMPSE wrote:
Crosshair wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Only one I see here twisting facts and data, or rather ingoring it, is you.

Sorry if I offend cheaters and frauds.

Obvious troll is obvious..

Obviously from a guilty corp.  Punished for cheating and frauds.  And still trying to look innocent lol.

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Re: Insurance action

Speedy Gonzalez wrote:

Instead of admiting fact that Developers *** up with Insurace system, they put blame on corporations and people. Even worse, pointing fingers. "we wiped 1 billion nic" is big bullshit as well. They didn't wipe just insurance cash, they wiped everything, nic from sales, nic from assignments, nic from donations. And that's way more than 1 billion nic.

Blaming players about own *** ups is weak. Simple as that. You as company just lost a lot of credibility and trust.

Nonsense. In the type of complex client/server apps that MMO's require, mistakes are going to happen.  Especially with a small team on their first game.  If those involved had done the responsible thing, and reported the *exploit* involved, and then moved on, we'd not be hearing all of the howling that we are now. But that wasn't nearly good enough for some.

Instead, they decided to use it to their advantage and produced huge amounts of NIC, which distorts the in game economy. I'm just glad it didn't take AC years, like some in EVE did to get corrected.

Sure the mistake was made by the Dev's, thats a given. But the players who exploited that for their own gain, made their own choice as well. In many games, actions like this would have resulted in a perma ban.  Fortunately for some, AC decided not to go that route. This time.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.
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Re: Insurance action

Liveware Problem wrote:

Oh the tears!  Bottom line is that if you hadn't cheated you wouldn't be crying now.

Exactly.  Many companies would have been swinging the perma ban hammer over an exploit like this.  The fact that AC didn't, this time, is to their credit.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.
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Re: Insurance action

Wraithbane wrote:

Nonsense. In the type of complex client/server apps that MMO's require, mistakes are going to happen.  Especially with a small team on their first game.

Insurance *** up doesn't have anything to do with complexity of client/server apps of MMOs. The topic mostly discussed here is not even that. It's another *** up - how did they handle the first *** up.

Wraithbane wrote:

If those involved had done the responsible thing, and reported the *exploit* involved, and then moved on, we'd not be hearing all of the howling that we are now. But that wasn't nearly good enough for some.

Instead, they decided to use it to their advantage and produced huge amounts of NIC, which distorts the in game economy. I'm just glad it didn't take AC years, like some in EVE did to get corrected.

I'm glad that you had some time to read the thread and get some knowledge on the topic you are discussing. Ohh wait.

Wraithbane wrote:

Sure the mistake was made by the Dev's, thats a given. But the players who exploited that for their own gain, made their own choice as well. In many games, actions like this would have resulted in a perma ban.  Fortunately for some, AC decided not to go that route. This time.

Once again, failing to read _or_ comprehend on WTF the issue actually is.

93 Reply by Wraithbane (edited by Wraithbane 2011-02-14 02:30:25)

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Re: Insurance action

Saha wrote:
Wraithbane wrote:

Nonsense. In the type of complex client/server apps that MMO's require, mistakes are going to happen.  Especially with a small team on their first game.

Insurance *** up doesn't have anything to do with complexity of client/server apps of MMOs. The topic mostly discussed here is not even that. It's another *** up - how did they handle the first *** up.

Wraithbane wrote:

If those involved had done the responsible thing, and reported the *exploit* involved, and then moved on, we'd not be hearing all of the howling that we are now. But that wasn't nearly good enough for some.

Instead, they decided to use it to their advantage and produced huge amounts of NIC, which distorts the in game economy. I'm just glad it didn't take AC years, like some in EVE did to get corrected.

I'm glad that you had some time to read the thread and get some knowledge on the topic you are discussing. Ohh wait.

Wraithbane wrote:

Sure the mistake was made by the Dev's, thats a given. But the players who exploited that for their own gain, made their own choice as well. In many games, actions like this would have resulted in a perma ban.  Fortunately for some, AC decided not to go that route. This time.

Once again, failing to read _or_ comprehend on WTF the issue actually is.

Laughter!... Oh, I'm quite aware of whats going on here. Bottom line, those involved EXPLOITED an in game system in a fashion it was not intended to be used for, to their own benefit, and now they are howling like banshees because the fruits of their exploits have been taken from them. All of the rest of the smoke and mirrors some are attempting to use are just obfuscation, meant to distract from that fundamental point.

I have to give AC credit. Even with a small team and limited resources, they much more quickly addressed a serious exploit, in a more timely fashion than I've seen CCP do in some cases in EVE. That speaks well for their concern about the games economy. The fact that they also didn't perma ban those involved, speaks well of their even handed approach.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

94 Reply by Saha (edited by Saha 2011-02-14 03:05:56)

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Re: Insurance action

Wraithbane wrote:

Laughter!... Oh, I'm quite aware of whats going on here. Bottom line, those involved EXPLOITED an in game system in a fashion it was not intended to be used for, to their own benefit, and now they are howling like banshees because the fruits of their exploits have been taken from them. All of the rest of the smoke and mirrors some are attempting to use are just obfuscation, meant to distract from that fundamental point.

I have to give AC credit. Even with a small team and limited resources, they much more quickly addressed a serious exploit, in a more timely fashion than I've seen CCP do in some cases in EVE. That speaks well for their concern about the games economy. The fact that they also didn't perma ban those involved, speaks well of their even handed approach.

Are you trying to look ***? Since you are succeeding quite admirably.

I'm one of the most posting persons on the issue. I haven't lost a single NIC. Nor do I mind that my corp did. For last 2 months I don't think I've had more than 3 million NIC myself, yet I'm able to fit t4s and to actually afford losing them. From the talks with the guys, they don't give a *** about lost NIC either. It just doesn't matter enough to make a fuss about it. And no, it doesn't matter not because we frauded enough NIC. No, it's because we know how to make stuff properly.

Yet you together with bunch of other clowns are jumping in joy thinking EXPLOITERS GOT PWNED LOL. We didn't. Devs, in your lingo, got PWNED LOL by their poor handling of the issue and that is concern we are raising. You are applauding them for technically letting poor system go live, then ignoring the warnings given by loads of people and then removing in game stuff which was generated by their ignorance.
Do you want to sit there and fap while under your nose a precedent of Devs covering their mistakes by blaming players is happening? If this goes untouched once, it'll happen again. And again. Do YOU want to play a game where one day you might wake up and let's say an extension in which you invested 40k EP is missing because Devs considered it to be overpowered or whatever?

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Re: Insurance action

Saha wrote:

...Do YOU want to play a game where one day you might wake up and let's say an extension in which you invested 40k EP is missing because Devs considered it to be overpowered or whatever?

unrealistic example, as removed extensions will free the spent EP...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

96 Reply by Dromsex (edited by Dromsex 2011-02-14 03:19:59)

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Re: Insurance action

Noone is covering up anything Saha. Obviously the game mechanic was created by the DEVs. They are responsible for any game mechanic or bit of coding.

But you are solely responsible for exploiting it.

And yes, you are the only ones who know how to make t4 items. Its serious business to know such a thing. Pls explain this secret to the rest of the community. You mean - there is a way to obtain items ingame legit? Elaborate pls.

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Re: Insurance action

Annihilator wrote:
Saha wrote:

...Do YOU want to play a game where one day you might wake up and let's say an extension in which you invested 40k EP is missing because Devs considered it to be overpowered or whatever?

unrealistic example, as removed extensions will free the spent EP...

Yes, example was poor. But it seems you got the message, which is good wink

98 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-14 03:31:38)

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Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

And yes, you are the only ones who know how to make t4 items. Its serious business to know such a thing. Pls explain this secret to the rest of the community. You mean - there is a way to obtain items ingame legit? Elaborate pls.


Please to engage brain before activating mouth....

Yes, there is, if you use said brain.  You have your whole corp farm kernals, and give them to 1 or 2 people in the corp, and viola!  they now have the prototype skill for those items.  Granted, work is involved, 10's, if not 100's,  of hours farming kernals.

All it takes is teamwork, and time, and effort.  And trust / co-operation, which is why M2S and Infestation corps have been successfull, because if 1 guy can prototype something, he makes several, and every corp in the alliance can get a proto to make a CT.

And that's why we're tight and small alliance...we actually work together cooperatively...

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!
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Re: Insurance action

There really should be a post limit on threads, after a few pages all the good comments are in and all that is left is rhetoric and rehashing.


This post is a pefect example.

100 Reply by Arga

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Re: Insurance action

... than agin, it can't hurt to have a few billion NIC to buy kernels to help that along either.