1 Topic by Ben Musso (edited by Ben Musso 2011-02-08 12:02:10)

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Topic: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Morning,

I am normally not into forum PvP but I am quite aware that I will attract a few "Don't QQ !" or similar from a few agents with enhanced forum e-peens, but ... hey, what the hell.

First off, I am a pure Alpha Island (AI) dweller with a few accounts dedicated to mining and production. I could not care less about PvP, Beta Islands (BI) and what not.
I consider myself an industrialist in all MMO's played so far.

That said, the last patch, intended to foster strategy and PvP does none of it.

AC can't expect all mass production to happen on BI only just because they favour the "strategy-PvP" aspect.
I've never been opposed or annoyed by the fact that Epri comes from BI's only. Quite right that is ( coming from EVE ).

But, the last patch introduced a nerf to ammo in general. Helio, required to manufacture most of the ammo, now grows to a max of 12 cycles on AI's.
This is just careless from AC.

If you, AC, want players to move to PvP then you need to actually enable them doing so and not swing the nerf-bat so hard that, not only, I lost the will to manufacture anything.
I need to farm half an AI to make 20k Phlobo ? This is about the worst thing you could do.

You diminish an important resources by a factor of 6 or 7 ... this is not thought thru very well, not at all.

I don't have a request, demand or anything for AC. It is my opinion however that you just crippled the newbies that come to the game, they get less for their kernels and need to spend more for their ammo. That has nothing to do with balancing, that is only a very bad move.

BM

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Ben Musso wrote:

It is my opinion however that you just crippled the newbies that come to the game, they get less for their kernels and need to spend more for their ammo. That has nothing to do with balancing, that is only a very bad move.

Basically what im experiencing right now. I dont get enough money from kernels and stuff to pay my ammo, so i decided to produce the ammo myself. That didnt work either.

Not producing/selling/doing anything useful right now.
ATM this game feels like a second job that i have to pay for. But maybe thats just me.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

I have an alpha island alt designed for testing changes for solo alpha players.
It's a missile user and it's about a 2 week old account.

The character now has T4 equipment from the market on his Waspish and farms kernels. I tried selling kernels on the market but nothing happened but I still made a small profit selling kernels on alpha and then buying agent ammo. I break even now but all the profit has been removed. Assignments aren't worth the 20,000 NIC every 20 minutes (On average) and running transport assignments on a combat character is a waste of EP IMO.

The industry changes are going to be tough but the community is very small at the moment. As it grows so will the reseed speed/amount. It's now very hard to make any money on the Alpha islands. The only thing to do is to be recruited into a beta island alliance and learn from them. Beta island once in these alliances is save at least 50% of the time if not more. Listening to others is an important skill.

In the last week I've been offered positions in many corporations both alpha and beta so it's not hard to get recruited. You just have to find the corporation doing what you want to do.

Production of standard modules should increase however as I am noticing a constant in price demand while some items have fallen in price.

The divide between rich a poor is larger than it should be but that's because it's easier to profit as you move up the chain. Your overheads tend to level out very quickly compared to alpha/beta. Production NIC sinks don't really increase at all.

Miners should be demanding a higher price for materials. I like that they're so cheap right now but they don't realise the power they have. Soon islands will be very hard to find good resources on. You'll need to travel around a lot and WILL need a good geoscanner. The difference is now huge. 50% won't cut it. 80%+ is now needed.

Instead of saying how it's not working look for ways to exploit loopholes. big_smile

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Could be worse, you could be combat.  wink

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Alexander wrote:

Miners should be demanding a higher price for materials. I like that they're so cheap right now but they don't realise the power they have.

/this

Ben pay attention.
big_smile

6 Reply by Smokeyii (edited by DEV Calvin 2011-02-16 02:27:47)

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

*edit* Please refrain from offensive comments. - DEV Client

I've heard alot about there being already too much nic in the economy, and this and that, and so I think this change has at least a little something to do with that. Maybe some fluff items introduced, like 1 time spray cans that paint your robot a diffrent color (but have absolutely no other affect!) that cost 2 million. Maybe charge station owners nic for being able to change the MOTD of the beta outposts.

There are other ways to have nic sinks then just nerfing minerals.

7 Reply by GLiMPSE (edited by DEV Calvin 2011-02-16 02:28:26)

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Smokeyii wrote:

*edit* Please refrain from offensive comments. - DEV Client

I've heard alot about there being already too much nic in the economy, and this and that, and so I think this change has at least a little something to do with that. Maybe some fluff items introduced, like 1 time spray cans that paint your robot a diffrent color (but have absolutely no other affect!) that cost 2 million. Maybe charge station owners nic for being able to change the MOTD of the beta outposts.

There are other ways to have nic sinks then just nerfing minerals.

Noralgis is a huge NIC sink -- especially when these plants get nomnomnom'd by our lazerz all day long.

But your idea's are cool too... I am sure people will put them to great use and not just ignore them. Well thought out post.

The simple facts are that the dev's hate blobs, you are in a blob, so by relation.... dev's hate you.

Imagine all the epitron you could have if RG wiped the field of those pesky lesser corps on norhoop that eat all your precious minerals all day and do nothing to help YOU.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

I don't think that the DEVs hate blobs... but some pvp orientated player started to complain about the them, even before there was a single one online.

theres a money sink missing for storage space. Usually, if you got billions of minerals stored, you should be able to pay more then 50k NIC per week

cap regular corporation and private storages at 1k U and you get your money sink that doesn't affect the casual player.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

9 Reply by Ben Musso (edited by DEV Calvin 2011-02-16 02:30:36)

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

*edit* Please refrain from offensive comments. - DEV Client

Alexander wrote:

The character now has T4 equipment from the market on his Waspish and farms kernels.

Sure, your main supplies your alt with NIC etc to buy T4 equipment. Sure all new and potential accounts have the luxury of that.

Alexander wrote:

The only thing to do is to be recruited into a beta island alliance and learn from them.

If that becomes the ONLY way to play ... buh bye.

Alexander wrote:

In the last week I've been offered positions in many corporations both alpha and beta so it's not hard to get recruited. You just have to find the corporation doing what you want to do.

Never said it wasn't.

Alexander wrote:

Miners should be demanding a higher price for materials. I like that they're so cheap right now but they don't realise the power they have.

That is the crucial point of it all. I love NIC like the next guy but I also want the game to grow. Having a decrease in payout ( Reward + kernel ) and an increase in what I need to pay to actually get the missions done ... not balanced. Just a gap opening and widening.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Bud Fox wrote:

ATM this game feels like a second job that i have to pay for. But maybe thats just me.

That is what I mean, casual play has left the building. It's all about farming this or that to get anywhere now, even as a rookie.

And that is not very attractive at all when it comes to retaining the passerby gamer that uses the trial.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

HereticZero wrote:

Could be worse, you could be combat.  wink

I paid 22M for a Gropho to participate in Alliance warfare ( where did I hear that already smile ) but a quick calculation of what it NOW takes me to make that back, noooooooo

12 Reply by Ben Musso (edited by Ben Musso 2011-02-08 18:43:47)

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

BigCountry wrote:
Alexander wrote:

Miners should be demanding a higher price for materials. I like that they're so cheap right now but they don't realise the power they have.

/this

Ben pay attention.
big_smile

You sound as if you like PvP.
Would you like more islands, targets etc. ?

I'd say that you do.

To have that, game needs to become more rookie friendly again ... otherwise you can forget it.

I paid attention, btw.

Seems that you missed the point. I am not saying that I cannot mine anymore or another whine. I am just expressing my opinion about PO having just opened a wide gap between playing the tutorial and actually being able to do something ( for the new, non-alt player ).

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Ben Musso wrote:
HereticZero wrote:

Could be worse, you could be combat.  wink

I paid 22M for a Gropho to participate in Alliance warfare ( where did I hear that already smile ) but a quick calculation of what it NOW takes me to make that back, noooooooo

Your corp requires you to purchase your equipment to benefit their military?

That's like requiring U.S. army members to come up with money for their own food/vests/gun's before deploying to Iraq.

Sounds rough.

You are fighting for your corp -- what has your corp ever done for you!?

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

GLiMPSE wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:

I didn't read the rest of the posts, because frankly i'm abstractly opposed to almost everything that spews forth from an infestation members mouth.

I've heard alot about there being already too much nic in the economy, and this and that, and so I think this change has at least a little something to do with that. Maybe some fluff items introduced, like 1 time spray cans that paint your robot a diffrent color (but have absolutely no other affect!) that cost 2 million. Maybe charge station owners nic for being able to change the MOTD of the beta outposts.

There are other ways to have nic sinks then just nerfing minerals.

Noralgis is a huge NIC sink -- especially when these plants get nomnomnom'd by our lazerz all day long.

But your idea's are cool too... I am sure people will put them to great use and not just ignore them. Well thought out post.

The simple facts are that the dev's hate blobs, you are in a blob, so by relation.... dev's hate you.

Imagine all the epitron you could have if RG wiped the field of those pesky lesser corps on norhoop that eat all your precious minerals all day and do nothing to help YOU.

I think your confusing our allies with mahti and cs

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

GLiMPSE wrote:

Your corp requires you to purchase your equipment to benefit their military?

That's like requiring U.S. army members to come up with money for their own food/vests/gun's before deploying to Iraq.

Sounds rough.

You are fighting for your corp -- what has your corp ever done for you!?

Please read the initial post again.

I stated clearly that I do not have interest in PvP, but ... I decided to chip in, on my own, after some contemplating and that is why I bought it.

Not because my corp "told me to" or "requires me to".

16 Reply by BigCountry (edited by BigCountry 2011-02-08 20:54:00)

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Ben your playing the industry side of the game.....you MUST have an interest in PvP if you want to succeed. Not necessarily the details or the gameplay, but you need to know who is fighting who, who is wining, who is losing - and who needs this, and that, etc.

Similar to EvE, this game's economy revolves around PvP man.

I wish the devs would fix/patch that, versus nerfing a material spawn.....lol

17 Reply by GLiMPSE (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-02-08 22:16:41)

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Jita wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:

I didn't read the rest of the posts, because frankly i'm abstractly opposed to almost everything that spews forth from an infestation members mouth.

I've heard alot about there being already too much nic in the economy, and this and that, and so I think this change has at least a little something to do with that. Maybe some fluff items introduced, like 1 time spray cans that paint your robot a diffrent color (but have absolutely no other affect!) that cost 2 million. Maybe charge station owners nic for being able to change the MOTD of the beta outposts.

There are other ways to have nic sinks then just nerfing minerals.

Noralgis is a huge NIC sink -- especially when these plants get nomnomnom'd by our lazerz all day long.

But your idea's are cool too... I am sure people will put them to great use and not just ignore them. Well thought out post.

The simple facts are that the dev's hate blobs, you are in a blob, so by relation.... dev's hate you.

Imagine all the epitron you could have if RG wiped the field of those pesky lesser corps on norhoop that eat all your precious minerals all day and do nothing to help YOU.

I think your confusing our allies with mahti and cs

wut?

Don't be mad that your epitron fueled alliance is crumbling beneath your feet for the simple reason that there won't be enough to go around on one island of 1000+ members. Feel free to expand though, we welcome the new inhabitants on hokk.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

BigCountry wrote:

Ben your playing the industry side of the game.....you MUST have an interest in PvP if you want to succeed. Not necessarily the details or the gameplay, but you need to know who is fighting who, who is wining, who is losing - and who needs this, and that, etc.

Similar to EvE, this game's economy revolves around PvP man.

I wish the devs would fix/patch that, versus nerfing a material spawn.....lol

Actually, I don't need to.

As opposed to EvE the market is anonymous and I can sell to whoever I want without having to worry about who is spying on corp purchases or checks my contract history since it's not visible anywhere what I do here.

The political landscape is also very different here compared to EVE ( you brought that up ).
PO has no sovreignty, is very linear as to what you can do to take an outpost from another corp/alliance.

As in EVE, however, Industry is the driving force behind PvP ( even thou with the introduction of those "special" kernels the NIC introduced has gone haywire ) and with the last patch the rich just become richer and that has nothing to do with PvP at all.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

The funny thing about this all is that I was told by a GM to post my concerns here and that a DEV would read and respond.

Either I have gone off the deep end and I don't make sense at all to them or it all comes down to "Tough ***, get to Beta island" mentality that I have heard so far from the upper echelons.

BM

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

GLiMPSE wrote:

You are fighting for your corp -- what has your corp ever done for you!?

The question is not what can my corp do for me but what can I do for my corp!

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Ben Musso wrote:

*edit* Please refrain from offensive comments. - DEV Client

I read that he agrees, it's very hard to make money on newbie characters. Possible, but difficult.

Ben Musso wrote:

Sure, your main supplies your alt with NIC etc to buy T4 equipment. Sure all new and potential accounts have the luxury of that.

From his post, it's not an alt he's feeding NIC, but a new character played as it if is solo.

That is the crucial point of it all. I love NIC like the next guy but I also want the game to grow. Having a decrease in payout ( Reward + kernel ) and an increase in what I need to pay to actually get the missions done ... not balanced. Just a gap opening and widening.

Before we were complaining that beta islands didn't offer enough reward for the effort required to hold them. Corps went to beta islands mainly for the e-peen...that's been readdressed now. Possibly a little to far the other way.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

BigCountry wrote:

... your playing the industry side of the game.....you MUST have an interest in PvP if you want to succeed.

Most stupid idea I ever saw. Many many crafters who do it becasue they like it (and not only for profit), have ZERO interest in PvP.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

Dizi ...

I think Big is saying that you have to monitor and adjust your production based on PVP factors, not that you have to participate in PVP; that is the 'reason' to craft is to support PVP action.

Knowing what modules are 'best fit' for which bots will give you an edge in the markets and knowing when PVP are going down can tell you to put fragments etc. up on the market for those outposts that have need of items to complete the node.

Craft on!!!

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

You have to be inventive to get around the limits. There are a lot of industrial people in eve that never touched 0.0 and made a great amount of money. If you can remove your dependence on beta you've gone one up on a lot of other people -- in a fair game manner of course.

You gotta kind of play when people are buying stuff, how, and what. Market is very dynamic.

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Re: PostPatch - an industrialist view

u're right Mara, but

in eve u know where u can find yr roids, maybe they won't be full, and maybe u could be popped , but roid belts don't simply disappear to spawn in a random location that u have to spend minutes (if not hours) to find.
Besides,u don't need mega or morphite to cook frigates (T1s) and cruisers (always T1) , now to cook light bots (ewars) you do in PO (like u do for bunch of other T1 mods)
That's just to discuss, not whining or other stuff like that