1 Topic by Edgar Magnus (edited by Edgar Magnus 2011-02-01 23:14:37)

  • ASI-BH
  • Agent
  • Offline

Topic: Theorize with me for a minute

Immediate Disclaimer: this is in no way a request for changes to this or any other game or a desire to discuss the morality of PVP over PVE or vise versa.
Merely a desire to discuss an idea that has been roiling around in my head for some years now... apologies if any grammar offends here, in kind of a rush to get lunch smile

We will call it, the Skill System Design Disparity theory for now.

Part 1. True PVP and PVE game mechanics are, fundamentally incompatible.
Part 2. The only way to solve fundamental incompatibility is through total separation.

I will try to explain my thoughts as best as possible from both standpoints without using absolutes and making it a 5 page post

Part 1 ~PVP: One of the main things I have heard over the years is "balance" or the illusion there of. Sadly, I (personally) have never found a game that has any number of types of character archetypes where one has an equal chance of beating the rest as the next one, Non standardized class systems fair far better in this however, of course. This is mostly caused by the fact that the base combat system of "most" given games is based off of....
   
-PVE combat systems, they are (usually) based around the big 3 roles. The classic formula that works fantastic for killing X big boss with small variances for hybrids and such. This leads to the "paper rock scissors" effect in PVP, which I have usually only heard this bring about dismay... "it's not fair, I have no way around this or I can't break that, no one will ever be able to out damage this classes heals" and on and on.

Which leads us to the crux of the theory . The nerf wars, the design disparity, one side asks for this change which adversely effects the other, who then scream about this change and demands another that damages the other.. and we have the endless exponential downward spiral where no one ever wins.

Part 2. I would like to see once, perhaps as an experiment, a release of a game with the two different systems on different world instances. the separate instances to unquestioningly accommodate the wholesale differences in loot, economic, balance and player structure. All rules of loot, experience, market/auctions, gear settings, damage effects, non damage skill effects be it severity or duration and things of that nature would be tuned for the individual system/server. As for content, that’s one thing I am having trouble deciding, but leaning toward keeping it as equal as possible.

These worlds would contain the separate PVP and PVE skill systems, from planning to release. Even going so far as each "class archetype" if need be has a totally different skill line up than its other equivalent.. also not limited in the way that over time a whole new "class archetype" can be developed just for PVP or PVE as it may be. Basically you would need two dev teams, two (in-game) GM teams. (yeah I know that's double the cost, hence why have to call it a theory) wink No change to one system/server affects the other, Ever. (only necessary technical aspects aside of course)

The goal is that the PVP server/system has builds where given roughly equal gear and numbers of folks either group of an opposing force would have equal chance of victory. Totally avoiding scenarios where there is, for example, 3 papers v 3 rocks the papers have the autowin button. The PVE system, (for ease of conversation starts with) its tanks, healers, dps, hybrids with the chance to develop a whole new dynamic on its own as time goes on. (or you know whatever system is decided on, this is next step material.)

Possible world breakdowns: (aiming toward building a baseline.)
PVP "red" server is open PVP say from a reasonable tutorial area out. Containing a few tiers of looting, first step is cash and exp, then 1 piece gear and exp, then full loots with exp gain for winner and loss for loser.
Perhaps down the line, a few rare arenas or small zones of automatic character deletion upon death (with a small revive timer handled in some way for a little leeway, Example for our game, an emergency energy transfer so on.) with far far vaster rewards than even the step below it. (any suggestions to help flesh this part out are of course welcome) I take back the no instances because there is bound to be a way to work some PVP in there rightly.

PVE "blue" server is well.. obviously no PVP.. we all know how they work, (maybe duels wink don't need to drag that part out for this discussion.. You could also include a hardcore raid zone with the same before mentioned uber lootz, deletion rez chance.

No character moves between the systems/servers, ever. if you are a "blue" player and decide to roll on the "red" server then you chose your fate and will accept it as it comes. Red and Blue servers will never cross. I know it boils down to basically two different games with the same lore and engine, but I believe done properly it could be a damned fine gaming experience for both types of players

But as this is mostly a discussion for system mechanics and not server rules we can leave that part at that for now, unless someone has a desire to expand this later down the road.

Apologies for the poor wording the first time, hope this works better smile

(I reserve the right to edit this again later for clarity if need be) wink

  • ASI-MA
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Theorize with me for a minute

Part 1. True PVP and PVE game mechanics are, fundamentally incompatible.

I understand your argument as this is the way the few MMOs that I have played have worked. I've played EVE for nearly 3 years now and this is something that has interested me as a programmer. In EVE terms (you will I hope forgive me for using those as that is what I am most familiar with), short version, PvP buffer tank and gank. PvE resists or repair.

Example: PvP Megathron, plates, trimarks, T2 neutrons. PvE Raven, Cruise, XL Booster, mission specific resists and cap booster.

EWAR plays it's part as well but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Part 2. The only way to solve fundamental incompatibility is through total separation.

Definately don't agree. I think CCP have been working hard, quietly, to get more PvE'ers in the position where they are PvP capable. Wormholes were a start because they got PvE'ers willing to risk stuff for the rewards.

T3 ships and Stealth Bombers helped as well.

Incursions are a big step forward, now the PvE'ers are routinely running 5 or 10 man gangs with a good balance of Logi, gank and misc.

In my opinion if the devs guide the game with the same sort of principle in mind then PvP and PvE can coexist and we all get the best of both worlds: PvE'ers get time to get the abilities and practice that will help them try out PvP without DIAF and the server pop of PvE'ers creates a healthy player driven market.

fake edit: first post smile Also I'm impressed with the game and the friendly nature of the community.

3 Reply by Campana (edited by Campana 2011-02-01 22:05:31)

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Theorize with me for a minute

Edgar Magnus wrote:

Part 2. I would like to see once, perhaps as an experiment, a release of a game with two different systems on different world instances, a truly separate PVP and PVE skill system, from planning to release. No change to one system affects the other, Ever.

Guild Wars did this...after years of balancing they eventually gave up on having the same skills in PvE and PvP and introduced 2 different versions of some of the skills. In a pvp area the skill did one thing, in a PvE area it had a slightly different effect. That way, none of the nerfs that were PvP related affected the PvE and vice versa.

But...why do you need this on separate world instances/servers? That seems completely unecessary if you want a one-world game.

I can think of several mechanics where this could happen. For instance, you could introduce mob-specific resistances and damage types. In order to PvE players need to use skill chains and equipment that maximise the damage type the mob is least resistant against. Those damage types don't affect players. Instead, you introduce a completely different sub-set of damage type for PvP, all of which use different skills. It could be a very different set up, with more kinds of skills that work against human intellence instead of AI.

The main issue with pvp vs pve is in the healing...you want 1 or 2 healers to be able to heal through multiple mob damage for 6 people. But in pvp you don't want 1 healer so powerful that 1 other player has no chance of killing him. I think one way to do this would to make PvE damag/healing largely dot/hot based, and stacking, whereas PvP could be based more around burst damage and burst healing.

You could also write up some lore to accomodate this...for instance mobs could be aliens, or demons, or spirits that are vulnerable to specific biological, radioactive or spiritual types of damage whereas default weapon damage is vs humans/player races used for pvp.


Edgar Magnus wrote:

The PVE system, of course, has its standard tank, healer, dps dynamic with the option of the usual hybrids with the chance to develop on its own as time goes on.

It doesn't have to. I want to write more about this but I gots work to do.

Also, shouldn't this be in off-topic?

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

4 Reply by Edgar Magnus (edited by Edgar Magnus 2011-02-01 23:12:58)

  • ASI-BH
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Theorize with me for a minute

you are totally right about the off topic part, didn't even think about that, so if a Mod can please move this, thank ya!

I think I do need to go back and clear up some things with my thought structure and grammar, edit up, apologies for the poor wording big_smile

  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Theorize with me for a minute

Atlantica Online does a fantastic job of making PVE and PVP mechanics different but good. You should take a gander at how it works. Much similar to guildwars, except that skill effects are actually tied to the character targeted rather than area.

  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Theorize with me for a minute

1. It's a genre dependent decision - PVP and PVE ideally are interconnected with a political system that allows freedom to a certain extent.

2. Apart from poor game design the conceived inability to balance pvp means - is a design rule known as 'rolling op'. Its meant to be that way, so that a constant and dynamic dicussion combined with hopes for changes which are 'close' and 'soon' - make people stick longer to a game.

  • ASI-BH
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Theorize with me for a minute

Redline wrote:

1. It's a genre dependent decision - PVP and PVE ideally are interconnected with a political system that allows freedom to a certain extent.

2. Apart from poor game design the conceived inability to balance pvp means - is a design rule known as 'rolling op'. Its meant to be that way, so that a constant and dynamic discussion combined with hopes for changes which are 'close' and 'soon' - make people stick longer to a game.

With #1 I was really talking about skill/ability coding, I am not totally sure where your coming from there, as I perceive what your talking about to be overarching character interaction, not game coding.

However with #2.. I totally didn't think about that hook angle.. After too many years of Wow, I guess I was brainwashed enough it didn't dawn on me lol

Guildwars only begins to go as far as I think it would take to make an effective split where one does not get in the way of the other. and I tried to play Atlantica Online, but meh, didn't dig it, so I never got in far enough to see how it fares, but I bet not what I was thinking about as its still one world.

I

  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Theorize with me for a minute

Yes i agree - most imlpementations combining pve and pvp are bad - thats what happens if very good programmers do everything on their own and choose to not have dedicated designers/writers.

And the 2nd point - yeah  - its an ugly reality but works. OFC there are games where balance isnt possible by early design mistakes - but wow - is the perfect example for RO.