1 (edited by Container 2011-01-28 17:19:42)

Topic: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I gave the current balancing changes a chance to observe if EWAR lights are balanced better against other types of bots.  But no, the SPEED GAP is still far far too huge.

37.5% faster than next faster bot type is OK??
Speed of Intakt with Nav 10 demob t4 lwf and t4 light lasers = 110kph+
Speed of Castel with Nav 10 demob t4 lwf and t4 light missile launchers = 80kph

NOT 10% faster.  No problem with that.
Not 20% faster.  May be acceptable.
Not 30% faster.  30% is already ridiculously overpowered.
>37.5% faster.  Utterly overpowered.  This is 37.5% faster than the next fastest class and >100% faster than mechs and heavy mechs!
This is immense overpoweredness of a single  bot class instead of making more classes viable.
This is not a small imbalance, or a minor problem.  This is a huge imbalance totally distorting everything in PVP.

While in stEVE there are interceptors, assault frigates, heavy assault cruisers, cruisers all being used for roaming, in Perpetuum there is only one single class.  EWAR lights.
EWAR light online will not hold the interest of subscribers and draw people to the game.
How boring, one class of bots and nothing else.

The reason is so obvious. >37.5% faster.
With that ridiculous speed advantage why would anyone use anything else for roaming?
Roaming is >90% of PVP in Perpetuum so better make more than one class viable for that.
Reduce the speed gap to 20% faster and people may actually use other bots.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

horrible QQ  -3

No need to nerf bots, just add more,. The logic you have here is flawed,. roming groups in eve have mixed speeds,.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I wonder... could this have something to do with a certain Gropho incident yesterday?  wink

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

TL:DR Container loses a Gropho completely Neut & Shield fitted to a group of 10 light EWAR bots when he only had a Kain to support him. Apparently this is imbalanced. I call this Darwinism at work.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Infestation uses mech-class bots for roaming.  As a matter of fact that's all i like to go out in anymore.

Maybe the problem isn't the speed difference between bots as much as your own or your corp/alliance inability to use the bigger bots effectively in roams.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Petty derail attempt.  Back to balancing discussion.

37.5% difference in the most critical statistic (speed) in Perpetuum?  Come on.  Doesn't take much mathematical sense to realize that this is a severe imbalance.

See gangs with nothing but EWAR lights roaming day after day after day? Come on.  Doesn't take huge powers of observation to realize that there are no good alternatives to that single class of bots.

How much more clear can an imbalance be?  In terms of magnitude of statistic and bot usage patterns in roaming PVP.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

WHY THE F*** YOU ARE TRYING TO COUNTER INTERCEPTOR CLASS ROBOTS WITH DREADNOUGHT/BATTLESHIP EQUIVALENT OF HEAVIES AND MECHS?

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container wrote:

realize that this is a severe imbalance.

See gangs with nothing but EWAR lights roaming day after day after day? Come on.  Doesn't take huge powers of observation to realize that there are no good alternatives to that single class of bots.


Because you are unable to adapt and counter that tactic doesn't make it imbalanced.
It makes you look stupid.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Yawn.  Standard M2S practice.  Have any opposing point of view and they bring out 1) flood of posts to outnumber your point of view, 2) petty incidents to turn the discussion personal, insults and distraction tactics.
You fool no one by your distractions.
The balance problem remains.

Speed of EWAR lights >>>>>> Next fastest bot.
The problem it is >>>>>> not >>>.
37.5%.  Too much.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Boost the speed of light bots to fill the gap, maybe?

You and your battle tactics consist of bringing plated mechs against light ewar.

And then you wonder why you fail. Repeatedly...

Just take a look what proper PVP alliance do to "overpowered" ewar group.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

As I said, standard M2S forum posting practice:
2) petty incidents to turn the discussion personal, insults and distraction tactics.
Very transparent attempt to distract.

Sure, boost speed of light bots to make them alternatives for roaming as well.
The problem is the only thing that can catch EWAR lights is other EWAR lights.
Nothing else is fast enough given the next faster classes are 37.5% - 100% slower!

This violates scissors paper stone concept of balance if scissors is counter to scissors.

12 (edited by Siddy 2011-01-28 15:52:57)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Hello, i am paper

Rock is fine...

but

nerf scissors.

/edit, make something that can catch ewar, and everyone who roam like we do will switch to it.
Back to square 1, idiot...

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container wrote:

>37.5% faster.  Utterly overpowered.

While in stEVE there are interceptors, assault frigates, heavy assault cruisers, cruisers all being used for roaming...

Since you brought up EVE as the game to be compared against...

What is the speed difference between the ship classes in EVE? Care to guess?

Base Claw -> 475 m/sec
Base Rifter -> 353 m/sec

A 34.5% difference in speed.

Can you explain?  How do players in EVE manage with the same exact speed difference but you and/or your alliance can't?

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

As I said.  Standard M2S practice.  Have any opposing point of view and they bring out 1) flood of posts to outnumber your point of view.

You can't compare speed in EVE to speed in Perpetuum because it is not WASD, has warping to bookmarks, ships use microwarp drives that can be shut off with scramblers, access to speed stacking mods, combat mostly around stationary points, more concentration on gate camping etc.  In Perpetuum movement boils down to a single stat.
How fast can you run.  A large difference in that is all-powerful.

The relevant comparison is that EVE has more classes of ships enjoying roaming than Perpetuum does.
For roaming, its EWAR lights alone.  No lights, no assaults.
For EVE roaming, a rifter is always welcome, or an interceptor, or assault frigate or a HAC or a cruiser.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

@OP
I see your point, but making everything to have aroud the same speed wouldn't be a nice solution either.
We need more thing to defend, to fight for then the bigger toys will have their uses and the attackers have to bring their own too.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container wrote:

As I said.  Standard M2S practice.  Have any opposing point of view and they bring out 1) flood of posts to outnumber your point of view.

You can't compare speed in EVE to speed in Perpetuum because it is not WASD, has warping to bookmarks, ships use microwarp drives that can be shut off with scramblers, access to speed stacking mods, combat mostly around stationary points, more concentration on gate camping etc.  In Perpetuum movement boils down to a single stat.
How fast can you run.  A large difference in that is all-powerful.

The relevant comparison is that EVE has more classes of ships enjoying roaming than Perpetuum does.
For roaming, its EWAR lights alone.  No lights, no assaults.
For EVE roaming, a rifter is always welcome, or an interceptor, or assault frigate or a HAC or a cruiser.

I can unequivocally state that Infestation doesn't just roam with light ewar. They visited Domhalarn south with 6 mechs, 4 ewar and 1 assault recently. This group was fast and most likely fitted for range. The only thing they caught though were some ECorp members attempting to raid through Heydelhorn Station. I have to say that was some pretty bad timing on their part since we had already scouted their group prior to landing on Beta.

17 (edited by Mongolia Jones 2011-01-28 16:35:13)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container wrote:

As I said.  Standard M2S practice.  Have any opposing point of view and they bring out 1) flood of posts to outnumber your point of view 2) distraction tactics

Container: You are using your own #2 Distraction Tactics to hide the fact that no one is on here to defend your own point of view.


Container wrote:

You can't compare speed in EVE to speed in Perpetuum because it is not WASD

WASD has nothing to do with the issue.  People complain about speed in EVE just like you are doing it here.


Container wrote:

[EVE]has warping to bookmarks

In EVE some ships warp faster than others to those bookmarks (acceleration to 75%, turn/alignment rate, warp speed AU/sec).  Again, speed, speed, speed.


Container wrote:

[EVE] ships use microwarp drives that can be shut off with scramblers

EVE has scramblers Perpetuum has demobilizers


Container wrote:

[EVE has] access to speed stacking mods, combat mostly around stationary points

 

In perpetuum, you can stack lighter modules for more speed (or no mods for great speed boosts), combat is typically around points/center of mass as well.


Container wrote:

In Perpetuum movement boils down to a single stat.
How fast can you run.  A large difference in that is all-powerful.

Not so fast, it also boils down to how you fit your bot. You can get up to a 40% speed spread just in bot fittings due to the module weights.


Container wrote:

The relevant comparison is that EVE has more classes of ships enjoying roaming than Perpetuum does.

The MORE relevant comparison is that in Perpetuum itself m2s has more classes of ships enjoying roaming than AXE does.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Seridur wrote:

@OP
I see your point, but making everything to have aroud the same speed wouldn't be a nice solution either.
We need more thing to defend, to fight for then the bigger toys will have their uses and the attackers have to bring their own too.

Yeah, I am not asking for all bots speed to be the same.

Just either
1) EWAR lights speed nerfed by 15% to be still 22.5% faster than next fastest class light bots.
If 20% is not enough speed to conduct raids then that is over-relying on the speed advantage.
OR
2) Light bots speed increased by 15% so they are 22.5% slower not 35% slower than EWAR lights.  Then they occasionally can catch up to EWAR if EWAR are sloppy.  Makes the cat and mouse between light bots more interesting.  EWAR would still have the speed advantage but no longer be invulnerable and have to balance risk and gain more.

That should see more mixes of EWARs and light bots in roaming, and sometimes the odd mech here and there.  Rather than EWAR EWAR EWAR zzz.

Once again, EWAR lights should be very very fast.  Just not 37.5% faster!
It's not a question of their role or that they should be fast.  Just the degree that they are.

19 (edited by Seridur 2011-01-28 16:58:11)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Before the patch I asked for increasing the light bot's speed which they did, maybe it was not enough. defiantely not enough for my castel, but at least I saw some laser fitted yagel getting in the roaming squads. (I hate my troiar and castel btw.. at least the devs should give them some love)
As for m2s roaming with mechs, yeah I saw it sometimes, they have failed with them pretty badly. They are doing much better with full ew and I think for obvious reasons, they can at least retreat when in trouble.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Yes, I think increasing light bots speed by around 15% or so would be about right.
They still would not be catching EWARs but at least they would now have a chance to catch them if the EWARs are sloppy.
Then that would add some element of risk to EWAR lights rather than them being a bit too uncatchable.
Matter of degree.

Yes, I was perhaps too hard on balancing dev in OP.  DEV Alf did acknowledge the issue that EWAR lights are too fast.  And some changes were made in the right direction, just perhaps it was not enough.
Or perhaps EWAR lights can be nerfed something like 8% in speed and light bots speed increased by 8%.
Should be a more interesting bot balance.

21 (edited by Bastian Croft 2011-01-28 17:28:24)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

With all due respect, some of our best roams were assault/mech roams.  The enemy knew they could catch us, which made them engage with an equal (and often larger) sized force, rather than run, but they were still beaten with superior target calling/tactics/organization.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Bastian Croft wrote:

With all due respect, some of our best roams were assault/mech roams.  The enemy knew they could catch us, which made them engage with an equal (and often larger) sized force, but they were still beaten with superior target calling/tactics/organization.

Sounds fun.  Exactly the point.  Situations where both sides have to engage are fun often regardless of which side wins.  The fact that you guys came out in assaults/mechs too is simply because you silently agree too that just EWAR alone is really boring.

The problem with EWAR lights is they can engage and run at will while the other side cannot.
The majority of the time, roaming is all about EWARs alone because they are just too good.
Even the EWAR light heavy corps probably get really bored using them.

BTW, this is a balancing thread. Can infestation posts not contain propaganda all the time and make every single issue about how good they are and bad their enemies are?  Sounds like a brainwashed broken record tbh.

23 (edited by Seridur 2011-01-28 17:49:48)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I'm sure it can be great, but if you are not prioritizing speed you risk that your enemy
a, will just stay away from you or
b, eventually gather enough firepower and then no escape for you.

You get more succes and risk less with full ew

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

arbalest - 2x t4 sensor amp, 5x small t2 laser, 1x T4 lwf = ~100kph

get those intakts wink

tbh, with all that "they need the speed to be effective, not useless tacklers", i want to see the head-slots reduced and ewar modules in misc slots. 

Ewar bots are fast and their ewar equip is heavy, which would make them way slower then those you see running around.
But they are not fitting that heavy stuff - instead they are fitting light laser, light sensor amp, light demob and perhaps a heavy supressor - or just ultra-light weapon tunings.

Thats the off-factor:
light Ewars can effectively fit combat equip with speed boost
comparable combat bots that would fit ewar can do nearly nothing (1 or 2 headslots, hurray)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container wrote:
Bastian Croft wrote:

With all due respect, some of our best roams were assault/mech roams.  The enemy knew they could catch us, which made them engage with an equal (and often larger) sized force, but they were still beaten with superior target calling/tactics/organization.

Sounds fun.  Exactly the point.  Situations where both sides have to engage are fun often regardless of which side wins.  The fact that you guys came out in assaults/mechs too is simply because you silently agree too that just EWAR alone is really boring.

The problem with EWAR lights is they can engage and run at will while the other side cannot.
The majority of the time, roaming is all about EWARs alone because they are just too good.
Even the EWAR light heavy corps probably get really bored using them.

BTW, this is a balancing thread. Can infestation posts not contain propaganda all the time and make every single issue about how good they are and bad their enemies are?  Sounds like a brainwashed broken record tbh.


No, I'm not 'silently agreeing.'  We did an assault/mech roam because we wanted to, no other reason behind it.

The MAIN reason you see so many ewar roams is because when people want to run and dock up in safety, ewar bots are the only ones that can hope to get a fight out of folks who would rather not fight.  It really is that simple.