Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I want to see more PvE.  Doing the same couple missions over and over.. and over is why I left Eve after trying it three different times.

Give us some dungeon-like bases to assault and more boss type mobs in such places.  It doesn't need to be group-only and certainly shouldn't.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Savin: My comments are only related to PVE, which I interpret as combat vs. npcs primarily. Industry and market solutions are beyond the scope of PVE in my eyes. Industry should have it's own thread, separate from this one, so that good industry ideas do not get overlooked. (I main a prototyper. Economics make or break an MMO in my eyes.)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Lyghtcrye wrote:

Savin: My comments are only related to PVE, which I interpret as combat vs. npcs primarily. Industry and market solutions are beyond the scope of PVE in my eyes. Industry should have it's own thread, separate from this one, so that good industry ideas do not get overlooked. (I main a prototyper. Economics make or break an MMO in my eyes.)

thats actually a good point: "Player vs. Enviroment" is not the industrial part of the game. With the market for 99% beeing player driven - you can't call it PvE at all.

My comments here are also mostly related to the combat against NPC.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Lyghtcrye wrote:

Savin: My comments are only related to PVE, which I interpret as combat vs. npcs primarily. Industry and market solutions are beyond the scope of PVE in my eyes. Industry should have it's own thread, separate from this one, so that good industry ideas do not get overlooked. (I main a prototyper. Economics make or break an MMO in my eyes.)

You make a good point. I think that combat vs. NPC bots is certainly a part of PvE, and to some extent we have all been oversimplifying by ignoring that rather rare creature, the combat-oriented player who only fights NPC bots. Certainly I think that more options should be available to these players- new and different NPC bots implies new and different tech for the rest of us.

But industry can also be considered PvE. True, very little combat is involved, but there are still challenges present in exploration and gathering some of the rarer resources, not to mention the problem of obtaining high-level kernels or items for reverse-engineering.

I agree that we should probably have a separate thread, though, if only to keep all these ideas organized.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Savin wrote:

You make a good point. I think that combat vs. NPC bots is certainly a part of PvE, and to some extent we have all been oversimplifying by ignoring that rather rare creature, the combat-oriented player who only fights NPC bots.

Man dude,. thats been the core rout of the topic this whole time.. Its no wonder people are traumatized by your grumblings an lack of insight to the issue.. wake up man..

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Greenleaf wrote:

Man dude,. thats been the core rout of the topic this whole time.. Its no wonder people are traumatized by your grumblings an lack of insight to the issue.. wake up man..

Wow, maaan, harsh, duude. If you honestly believe that the discussion these last few days has only been about NPC bots, if your impotent rage is such that you're able to ignore pages of posts in order to take a cheap shot at me, then I shall go to sleep soundly tonight, content in the knowledge that your seed will provide another generation of people to dig ditches and serve fried chicken to my grandchildren.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

82 (edited by Greenleaf 2011-01-25 04:33:26)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Savin wrote:
Greenleaf wrote:

Man dude,. thats been the core rout of the topic this whole time.. Its no wonder people are traumatized by your grumblings an lack of insight to the issue.. wake up man..

Wow, maaan, harsh, duude. If you honestly believe that the discussion these last few days has only been about NPC bots, if your impotent rage is such that you're able to ignore pages of posts in order to take a cheap shot at me, then I shall go to sleep soundly tonight, content in the knowledge that your seed will provide another generation of people to dig ditches and serve fried chicken to my grandchildren.

Evin after a swift water boarding you still dont wake up. there is a problem with player vs environment, The minning part? well its done better then most games,. besides the fact it might get Usurped by people recycling loot.

/edit : I said core rout,. Not "only"

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Greenleaf wrote:

/edit : I said core rout,. Not "only"

So? you're still wrong.

Nowhere, in any of the posts in this thread, is the discussion limited to combat with NPC bots. For purposes of this discussion, it has been clear from page one that PvE encompasses more than NPC bots. So let the big kids handle this- you can rage about your need to gank people in the other thread.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

First post updated.

sorry for the confusion, but Greenleafs assumption is right.
I want to collect mainly Player vs. NPC ideas, which is usually called PvE


now please stop insulting each others and stay on topic.

Forum Rule #5
Pyramid quoting, quoting excessive amounts of text or quoting without any senseful reply is forbidden. Only quote that is necessary to show what your reply refers to.

85 (edited by Redline 2011-01-25 19:14:21)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Setting:

Since there are 3 different factions it would be nice to make use of that setting as mentioned several times.

a) Home islands are invaded by the two hostile factions and are at war. The state of war is dynamically defined by agressing that faction the most which is dominating the 2 others factored by values coming from the most progressed/RE'd/produced robot families on the market and the most used by players. Intensity of these NPC wars varies according to that.

b) Attacking robots of the same family as oneself is results in faction standing loss, though it would be the easiest since the 2 other factions join in on these battles.

This would require the faction standing to have an impact on the difficulty of PVE fights - the better a standing is - the lesser the NPC of that family will engange you. If you engange him, its powers are dimished by your faction standing - but your faction standing would be reduced quickly.

If you wouldnt attack your family - it would automatically boost your PVE chances against the other 2 families, since they are at war. But you would need to find another player from another faction to kill those bots for you, you need most.

This way the faction standing is also something usefull in PvP situations since one could hide in a PVE family type spawn.

c) Spawns only spawn 1 faction type. If this particular spawn isnt being farmed(for missions or loot) in a certain ratio, the spawn will grow over several days. When a certain amount is reached - the double or triple sized group of bots start roaming as a group aiming at primnarily at the hostile NPC faction(shown above) - but also attack players depending on faction standing.

There would be some fix roaming routes to hostile NPC spawns - but also the most used paths are being frequented.

Spawns that grow according to above - have the possibility to breed a boss type NPC.

d) As soon as there are player made assets on alphas (could be instanced entry points to not cover the alphas totally accessible for Corps with an alliance feature(to be developed)) roaming NPC would attack those according to their family status type. All those housings would have an indicator defined by its members families. The higher that indicator points to a certain family, the more likely the housing will be attacked by hostile roaming NPC as described above.

These ideas just need evaluation of the most used paths(already there), evaluation of the most used/advanced robot family(easy to do via the market and player origins) and evaluation of the housing indicator(factored by its members).

The AI changes needed are minor ones, since each action on its own isnt complex. Same with the faction standing influencing the possibility of being attacked or indirectly supported. Overall its a: "if x > then" - its thecomplexity and diversity of players which makes this system 'seem' unpredictable or non-linear - but its not of course.

Complexity:

Speaking of AI - some minor changes in small PVE encounters would be nice, without having to re-build logics which is a hard task and still easy to exploit. Developing advanced AI is a profession and project for itself - but some minor, rather random events like extending the agression range or making NPC follow a player for longer distances then normal, could add a tiny bit of spice.


Features:

I'd like to see more features concerning player/NPC interaction.
-make scanning an NPC advance your scientific progress a bit(if your an RE guy)
-make NPC corpses hackable yielding a better kernel result or with a chance of a higher tiered item as normally
-implement hacking those corpses as minigames letting you not see what happens aroubnd you while doing it. If you trie too long, other NPC might spawn and already attack you, while your hacking

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

In terms of specific suggestions, the most pressing at this stage of the game's development is to make missions more dynamically varied.  Having the same corp give the exact same 3 missions from the exact same terminals is boring.  Vary them.  But, variety requires more types (and more spawns), and having a bunch of of new spawns all over the landscape will make travel difficult.  Go to instanced spawns (lots of suggestions for how to do this posted already). I would suggest putting entrances to the various eye candy buildings littering the landscape and make them the locale for the missions (clean out building X that has been overrun by...).  This is something you are going to have to confront sooner or later.  That outdoor spawn of 6 npc's is OK for the 1k people logged on at any one time nowadays (and 2 people doing the same mission).  But what will happen if the game grows (as you no doubt hope and pray) and you have 5k+ logged on and 7+ players all trying to kill the same 6 npc's.?

In terms of a more general suggestion, let me refer to EVE (the game Perpetuum is obviously modeled after).  The key to a great sandbox game is for there to be lots to do and good reasons to do all of it.  In EVE, you have many different things to do and all can be done anywhere by anyone if they so choose (and are willing to risk the danger).  Any player can venture in unsecured or 0.0 space and have a reasonable chance of being succesful even if the don't belong to the controlling Corp.  this is because of gate to gate jumps, cloaking, and a variety of others skills and player techniques that balance out the risk and reward (it's risky but you can possibly get the reward often enough to cover the losses). 

Not so in Perpetuum (as far as I can see after a few weeks).  Beta islands cannot be accessed successfully by anyone without the permission of the controlling corp/alliance.  There are no ways (I'm aware of) through the choke points as a solo player and so there is zero chance for success and going leads to a sure death.  So, the beta islands cannot be accessed (in practical terms) by a significant chunk of the player base for pve purposes.  That makes the sandbox 50% smaller than it would otherwise be (and it's not all that big to begin with).  I'm not saying access should be easy or that a blob of 20 should be able to sneak in undetected, but there needs to be a way for people who are willing to risk the danger to get into the beta islands and have a chance at survival that at least equals if not outweighs the chance of death.  If not, they just won't go.

87 (edited by Redline 2011-01-25 20:05:54)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Agreed to varying missions and more specific missions. Also agreed on problems of being successfull on beta.

Getting there is easy - also getting rid of a scout as a group - but just a few minutes later there will be 1 or 2 counter setup groups whereas you cannot adapt anymore - but the local party can.

You cant even jump out if you try to defend yourself - so theres vast room for improvements concerning ways how to loose scouts and/or have means to create ambushes even as intruder.

Yes, these 2 last paragraphs concern PVE, PVE on beta.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

thats sounds intresting red.

though, its not accurate - there are actually 7 npc factions ingame which have no meaning atm:
3 NIA factions (Pelistal, Nuimquol, Thelodica), 3 Earth megacorporations (TM, ICS, ASI) and the Syndicate.

If i get your post right, your combining the three earth megacorps with the Nian factions of the same color.

That aside, i totally agree that there has to be a political corelation between your initial faction choice, your player corporation and what you actually do.
We all started as member of the Syndicate, with the goal to gather research data, build infrastructure and transfer the infinite energy from NIA to earth. The backstory als tells that the three factions dont like each other but they all work together for the syndicate for the main goals.

This can, and should be used for PvE content. To use the subtitle of a singleplayer sandbox game: Trade, Build, Fight, Think.


yes the AI should be upgraded step by step, turning it to the complex RTS AI i mentioned earlier. Redlines suggestions are a good step towards that goal.

but My feature suggestions are a bit different:
Looting in its current form is killing a good part of PvE possibilities.

  • The robot-wreck should contain the loot, not an artifical container.

  • Regular loot from a wreck should be just a rare item/module drop.
    Remove NPCs as primary source for standard equipment

  • (Industrial) player with a kind of scavanging skill/module should be able to claim scrap/fragments from the wreck.
    This would make more sense for "Recycling", and reduce the loot that has to be destroyed to get rid of containers.

  • Kernels as NIC source from NPC farming could be replaced with bounty.
    With npcs spawns not beeing static to farm, this would make more sense.
    The chinese-grinder argument against bounty doesn't work, as seen around the starter areas

  • knowledge base should be built up from reversing looted modules and prototyping
    you can implement other features to make knowledge share/trade-able

  • wrecks should be processed by native nanobots and saturate the ground tiles with minerals.
    Areas with regular combat would turn into valuable mining grounds after some time

  • Item durability
    Items durability should wear down, so even the best skilled npc killer or miner has to replace them on regular basis with new built ones.

  • watering modules
    For savin to make his isolated garden grow faster. (and that is a serious suggestion wink

ah i could continue endlessly big_smile

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Recognizer wrote:

First post updated.

sorry for the confusion, but Greenleafs assumption is right.
I want to collect mainly Player vs. NPC ideas, which is usually called PvE

Well, I guess updating after 5 pages is better than never... sad

And if that is the case, then where's the thread on industry?

But back to topic:

Personally, I think we should move away from, or at least greatly reduce assignments and assignment rewards. I'm with Annihilator that a lot more loot/tech could come from bot kills; having a 'scavenge' type skill would be another good option.

I want to see less income from all assignments, and fewer assignments in general because it's an unlimited money source. I think that after getting a start from the introductory missions, we should all learn to develop relationships with each other.

We all started as member of the Syndicate, with the goal to gather research data, build infrastructure and transfer the infinite energy from NIA to earth. The backstory als tells that the three factions dont like each other but they all work together for the syndicate for the main goals.

Absolutely! After all, we are supposed to be Corporations, not armies, right? Then let's act like corporations:

  • cap the rewards for megacorp assignments at 5000 NIC.

  • give player corporations the ability to post/offer assignments for items they need instead

  • introduce skillsets that are limited to player types (unlocked by spending a certain value in an extension tree, or killing/mining/crafting certain amounts)

  • require every player and corporation to pay a weekly tribute of credits and/or goods to their sponsor corp- that's why they're here, right?

  • base player/corp advancement (credit line, how much space they can rent, how much territory they can hold) on their market value

P.S. Annihilator, thanks for the watering can, but watching those things is boring as hell already... tongue

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I know, thats partially the other topic, but:

Solo-able combat PvE content =
smaller groups necessary to do somthing meaningfull =
room for solo/small scale-PvP roaming.

----

Final goal must be to remove any static NPC spawn. I really hope the DEVs can hire someone with RTS experience, and writing them:
A, a working RTS AI
B, a Pathfinding algorithm for NPCs to get them roaming with the commands given by the central RTS AI

not the single NPC bot has to act more like a PvP player,
the NPC Factions have to act like a Player corp - with the goal to explore, build, defend and gather.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Annihilator wrote:

Final goal must be to remove any static NPC spawn.
...
not the single NPC bot has to act more like a PvP player,
the NPC Factions have to act like a Player corp - with the goal to explore, build, defend and gather.

It's not a bad idea, and would certainly make the environment more dynamic.

The problem I see is that it's another way of forcing the harvesting/industrialist types to play in a way they don't want. In other words, any character that mines must either spend more points in combat extensions and equip their bot with combat gear, or only harvest under the protection of well-armed "shepherds."

Now, this is a fine solution, but I'm certain it will cause a number of players to leave the game. But then, maybe that's what needs to happen- just get rid of industry and research altogether, and let the pew-pew types run amok.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

You know, since we're only limiting "PvE" to the narrow definition of "player v. NPC combat," we've never really identified the problems, if there are any, with the current mechanic.

So what is the problem?

  • Are there not enough NPCs?

  • Are the NPCs too easy?

  • Does their connection to spawn points make them too boring?

  • Do they drop poor quality/not enough loot?

  • Are the assignments too similar or boring?

  • Are there not enough assignments?

  • Something else entirely?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Savin wrote:

So what is the problem?

I would say that whole system is flawed. Quoting myself from page 1

Petteri Petraaja wrote:

The current system is..

Boring and repetitive

They keep spawning and I keep shooting and looting and they keep spawning and I keep shooting and looting and they keep spawning and I keep shooting and..

Assignments. Gaming should be fun, no? So why does the system encourage us to make repetitive circles (some call them "laps" now?) pushing same buttons over and over again. Even if you do different "laps" and harder/longer assignments it all comes down to being boring and repetitive.

Meaningless

The lore of the game is not coherent with the content. It really is just one huge Farmland where you either farm nic, research or standings with no other purpose than to hoard resources to be used in PvP.

To me it seems that the DEVs think PvE players are all powergamers who get enough joy and reason to keep playing out of optimizing their farming.

PvE should be about fun, enjoying playing a game. Imho, to consider this games PvE (PvNPC) fun you really have to like optimizing a) your nic/h b) your setup/tactic to deal with a difficult spawn.

(a) Might keep certain type of players entertained, doesn't work for me. As Jita said in this thread "I expect pve to be about fun, not about reward."

(b) Also might keep certain type of players entertained? But for how long? The static spawn points give you specific target to prepare for, but to enjoy and consider it fun for more than few succesful attempts? And the more difficult bots are in Beta so you also have to enjoy the possibility of PvP. But since this is about enjoying PvE I think PvP should not be brought in.

I cannot really find anything positive to say about the PvE(NPC). To me there is no fun in it. The question should be "How to make PvE fun in sandboxgame". Already gave my answer to that earlier..

Would be nice to know the DEVs definition for what a sandboxgame means to them. They should give us some sort of framework to work with if they really want our ideas and opinions.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Savin wrote:

The problem I see is that it's another way of forcing the harvesting/industrialist types to play in a way they don't want. In other words, any character that mines must either spend more points in combat extensions and equip their bot with combat gear, or only harvest under the protection of well-armed "shepherds."

can you plase explain what your "combat gear" is, that those industrialists have to equip?

Actually, right now, the industrial and combat orientated builds do differ pretty much in one fact:
The mining guy can place 100% of his extension points into his mining skills and robotics, and totally ignore secondarys like Hitpoints, lockingtime, shield ans such stuff.

You can see that cleaerly, as all those alpha miners can actually use a termis (mech) after a week, while the combat orientated guys have to spend month of EP to use their Mechs.
That goes for both, PvE and PvP.

The Heavy Industry mechs even got a resis bonus and plenty of hitpoints. so "forcing" them to think a bit more about defensive extension / equip isn't something bad in my eyes.

savin wrote:
  • Are there not enough NPCs? quantity is not the problem

  • Are the NPCs too easy? you cant say that

  • Does their connection to spawn points make them too boring? defenately

  • Do they drop poor quality/not enough loot? more the oppositte

  • Are the assignments too similar or boring? defenately

  • Are there not enough assignments? again, quantity is not the problem

  • Something else entirely?alrady been said often enough

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I like a rare few of the ideas but ripping up whole facets like the loot tables and other such changes, isn't what needs to be done.  We shouldn't be telling them to redo the whole PvE game. 

Additions are what is needed.  Don't touch the economy or change the mobs.  Just add more, and varied, PvE.  It doesn't have to be a complete theme park MMO, but adding some life to it is called for.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I only expect rewards at least comparable to mining (which can be done AFK), since the sole PvE mechanic is gonna be terrible and boring anyway.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Eh, turns out the whole point of the thread was just to introduce the idea of more roving NPCs in the next patch.

Oh well.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

even if the implement now roving NPCs as "squads", its still far away from what i expect from PvE.

I think this topic was created to get more input then "give us more PvE content!".
in other words the playerbase screams "give us something to do",
and the Moderator asking "what do you want to do?"

As far as i understand that preview we will get:
- roaming NPC squads
- the first plant seeding gamemechanic (also i heard you wont have to water them)
- eventually random static spawns

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Annihilator wrote:

I think this topic was created to get more input then "give us more PvE content!".
in other words the playerbase screams "give us something to do",
and the Moderator asking "what do you want to do?"

Honestly, to me it's rather obvious: the rather heavy-handed editing, the extremely narrow definition of "PvE" as "Player combats NPC," the uncreative view that "content" is equivalent to "fighting things"- it really should be retitled to "Where else can we add combat?"

Annihilator wrote:

As far as i understand that preview we will get:
- roaming NPC squads
- the first plant seeding gamemechanic (also i heard you wont have to water them)
- eventually random static spawns

Roaming squads? Depends on how they're implemented, but a great way to cut back on industrial-only type players and corps.

The plant seedings are ok, i guess, but seem like a half-hearted attempt at introducing "strategy" into the mix, or just another reason to PvP- water or no, somebody has to protect the garden.

Random spawns? Just like the roaming squads, a great way to force industrial types to spend more time in combat or leave the game.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

ah, savin - stfu...

Im playing this game now for more then a year - mainly as miner and harvester...
you know what - the mining game is BOOOORING!

i also have a combat agent -
you know what - the countless npc harvesting is BOOOORING.

im used to be called a carebear by m2s... but your attitude is out reach.
even my Girlfriend is less affraid of npcs in her termis/sequer/riveler

what the hell arey ou doing in this game?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear