Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Force to PVP=Game dead like an old shoe...

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I always see this being repeated - but - never seen it happen anywhere. If you mean dead smaller then wow - then all other games are dead. Elaborate pls and give examples.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Annihilator: "I" am not the one reducing PvE to mining and manufacturing- the game does that. The fact is that there's a threshold where characters who have the majority of their EP in gathering or industry cannot pass. At a certain level, the NPC bots are simply too tough for a character with only basic combat extensions.

Now, there's no question that additional NPC encounters would be a lot of fun for those who could handle them- namely, PvPers who weren't PvPing at the moment.

Lightcrye: Those actually sound like fun ideas, but they are also tailored to combat-oriented characters. Adding more "twitch" is great for the player who has the right build and extensions, but it would be just another aspect of the game that was unavailable to industry-oriented players.

Other: I agree with you that the economic aspects should be more important than they are now. First, we are supposedly on this planet for purposes of exploitation- so why aren't we sending resources back home? Also, if our sponsors are giant corporate conglomerations, wouldn't they take particular interest in our profitability?

Moreover, the economic/diplomatic aspect is really the only area where industrial types can compete, where they aren't excluded because they have the wrong extensions.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Dead game=server down...(how many people left the game already?) From my corp with was over 50 people, over 40 left already the game because the pve problem)
This days only 3 people are online from my corp...

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

If the skill sets required to play the industrialist/economic side of the game were more EP intensive and pvpers had no prayer of manufacturing their own equipment without the help of specialized industrialists then pvp corps would by necessity need the other players to be viable.

Success should be determined by who can cripple the other economically first.  If you can't field the proper equipment and robots your chances of winning will be extremely limited.

Nerfed random drops from higher end NPCs would limit cash flow to PVPers.  Simultaneously you would need to increase the reward for high end combat assignments so that the PVE side wouldn't take a hit at the same time.

Additionally it should consume more resources and manufactured components to build high end mechs and equipment.  On top of that there should be more resources that are limited to only Beta Islands so that it would be necessary for PVP corps to have (and protect) their industrial arms in Beta Island areas.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I think everybody agrees that there has to be more sand in this game - better and more interesting pve and fluff. Its not a secret.

DEVs focussed on pvp balancing/additions - now that needs to rest for the sand being adressed.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Recognizer wrote:

Savin, please stay on topic.

I'm asking what you expect from PvE as PvE player,
not how to balance PvP and PvE.

Are you satisfied with "Get to point A, kill X NPCs and deliver something"-Assignments?
Are you satisfied with npcs spawns placed in pits like animals, just there to be macro-farmed?
...

you guys again offtopic.

Savin wrote:

Annihilator: "I" am not the one reducing PvE to mining and manufacturing- the game does that. The fact is that there's a threshold where characters who have the majority of their EP in gathering or industry cannot pass. At a certain level, the NPC bots are simply too tough for a character with only basic combat extensions.

sorry, but could just post your "expectations" and not repeating your self and getting off topic?

something like: "I expect from PvE that i can mine all day long with my industrial specialized agent without any NPC coming my way, but eventually a PvP player can *** my ***"
"I dont care what those combat specced agents that want to do PvE do the whole day long"

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Annihilator wrote:

ysorry, but could just post your "expectations" and not repeating your self and getting off topic?

something like: "I expect from PvE that i can mine all day long with my industrial specialized agent without any NPC coming my way, but eventually a PvP player can *** my ***"
"I dont care what those combat specced agents that want to do PvE do the whole day long"

Expectations? You're off-topic (and off-language, it seems), but ok.

I expect, that if I stay on the alpha islands, I will be able to mine all day, all week, all year, without interruption so long as I stay away from NPCs and PvP islands. In other words, I expect Alpha islands to stay the same.

Now, if you wanted me to answer the actual question, I am satisfied with assignments and the placement of NPC spawns. There are other elements I would like added to PvE, but apparently Annihilator doesn't want anyone to mention that.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

AFK Games --> that way.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Other wrote:

If the skill sets required to play the industrialist/economic side of the game were more EP intensive and pvpers had no prayer of manufacturing their own equipment without the help of specialized industrialists then pvp corps would by necessity need the other players to be viable.

I think this is one option, but I'm not sure it should be all manufacturing or that it should come through EP. Maybe if only the very high quality goods, the ones in high demand, could be made by characters that had already manufactured a certain number of things, say 1000 assault bots, or 1 million missiles (these numbers are just for example).

The same could go for mining- certain elements could only be gathered by characters that already gathered 10 million of something, or refined 100K Hydrobenol, or whatever.

Other wrote:

Success should be determined by who can cripple the other economically first.  If you can't field the proper equipment and robots your chances of winning will be extremely limited.

I don't think economics should be the most important consideration, but I think it should be more important- the size and equipment of a corp's battle force should reflect its economic power.


Other wrote:

Nerfed random drops from higher end NPCs would limit cash flow to PVPers.  Simultaneously you would need to increase the reward for high end combat assignments so that the PVE side wouldn't take a hit at the same time.

This is interesting, I don't have an opinion yet. But I agree that the unlimited cash flow is a problem.

Other wrote:

Additionally it should consume more resources and manufactured components to build high end mechs and equipment.  On top of that there should be more resources that are limited to only Beta Islands so that it would be necessary for PVP corps to have (and protect) their industrial arms in Beta Island areas.

I agree. In my opinion, more resources need to be limited to PvP areas, so that the PvPers and PvEers would have no choice but to work together: only PvPers could provide the materials needed to make high-level gear, but only PvEers could make those goods.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

seriously - who do you think is producing all the goods that are destroyed at those blob vs. blob fight? do you think thats a PvE guy? or do you think someone with a combat agent has trained production up?

every major corp has a dedicated production agent, just doing production. anything else necessary can be bought of the market, while selling kernels or epriton to make NIC

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Annihilator wrote:

seriously - who do you think is producing all the goods that are destroyed at those blob vs. blob fight? do you think thats a PvE guy? or do you think someone with a combat agent has trained production up?

every major corp has a dedicated production agent, just doing production. anything else necessary can be bought of the market, while selling kernels or epriton to make NIC

That's the point of nerfing a pure pvp player's ability to farm drops and gather resources.  With an income level that doesn't come anywhere near supporting their pvp habit pvpers will be forced into a symbiotic relationship with industrialists.

Or... They could always start several accounts so they can spend forty hours a week doing something they hate to support a few hours of pvp time.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Really, if you think about it, in realistic terms, how reasonable is it to have a tenth of your corp playing a support role in combat operations?  In a realistic setting you would have ten times the support personnel than actual combatants.

This would go a long way in solving the problem of 85% of the population hanging out on Alpha islands.  Currently there's no need for em on Beta.

64 (edited by Other 2011-01-24 03:00:47)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Ipad keeps making me double post...

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Other wrote:

That's the point of nerfing a pure pvp player's ability to farm drops and gather resources.  With an income level that doesn't come anywhere near supporting their pvp habit pvpers will be forced into a symbiotic relationship with industrialists.

Or... They could always start several accounts so they can spend forty hours a week doing something they hate to support a few hours of pvp time.

Exactly! There's no problem with corps hiring or recruiting dedicated industrialists- that's the idea. My point is that they should be necessary: not as alts, but either as highly specialized corp members, or as trade partners.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Other wrote:

Really, if you think about it, in realistic terms, how reasonable is it to have a tenth of your corp playing a support role in combat operations?  In a realistic setting you would have ten times the support personnel than actual combatants.

This would go a long way in solving the problem of 85% of the population hanging out on Alpha islands.  Currently there's no need for em on Beta.

Absolutely: no army in history has been self-sufficient, and this has become even more obvious as technology advances. Why not make the in-game relationship reflect this: PvPers should be crippled without PvE support, and PvEers should be able to do only the basics without PvP support.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Lheomuh wrote:

Dead game=server down...(how many people left the game already?) From my corp with was over 50 people, over 40 left already the game because the pve problem)
This days only 3 people are online from my corp...

Just what is this "PvE problem"?  The fact that people can go about their business un attacked on the Alpha's? That's only a "problem" for those who want to be able to attack miners and haulers, and everyone else who doesn't choose to go over to the Betas.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Wraithbane wrote:

Just what is this "PvE problem"?  The fact that people can go about their business un attacked on the Alpha's? That's only a "problem" for those who want to be able to attack miners and haulers, and everyone else who doesn't choose to go over to the Betas.

H.L. Mencken is credited with saying "Puritans are people who are haunted by the fear that someone, somewhere, is having fun."

Ever notice the similarity?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Wraithbane wrote:

Just what is this "PvE problem"?  The fact that people can go about their business un attacked on the Alpha's? That's only a "problem" for those who want to be able to attack miners and haulers, and everyone else who doesn't choose to go over to the Betas.

I'm not looking at it so much of a playstyle problem.  I'm looking at it from a market pvpers perspective.

At some point the industrialist's equipment needs to be destroyed to create demand.  You need an extremely large NIC and equipment sink to keep markets moving.

It's a double edged sword if you think about it for Alpha island manufacturers.  Currently the major Beta island corps are mostly self sufficient.  If there's never any reason to replace a destroyed Riveler then the only people you are building for are new players and combat pve players (who lose gear at a much lower rate than pvpers).

In the end you'll have price deflation and no reason to manufacture for sale on the market.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Other wrote:

It's a double edged sword if you think about it for Alpha island manufacturers.  Currently the major Beta island corps are mostly self sufficient.  If there's never any reason to replace a destroyed Riveler then the only people you are building for are new players and combat pve players (who lose gear at a much lower rate than pvpers).

In the end you'll have price deflation and no reason to manufacture for sale on the market.

This is a very good point, Other, and it needs to be kept in mind.

I think you could introduce some sinks without much trouble. For example, what if any corp that held an outpost had to pay tribute or rent to the mega-corp back home? Every week, they would need to send home X units of resources or tech; if they did not, the landlord would shut off the lights, or evict them.

Of course, to be fair, the benefits of owning an outpost should be increased as well - but those benefits must be tied to economic PvP: only a PvP corp could provide the resources, but only a PvEer could use them.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

71 (edited by Other 2011-01-24 05:34:48)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Savin wrote:

This is a very good point, Other, and it needs to be kept in mind.

I think you could introduce some sinks without much trouble. For example, what if any corp that held an outpost had to pay tribute or rent to the mega-corp back home? Every week, they would need to send home X units of resources or tech; if they did not, the landlord would shut off the lights, or evict them.

Of course, to be fair, the benefits of owning an outpost should be increased as well - but those benefits must be tied to economic PvP: only a PvP corp could provide the resources, but only a PvEer could use them.

If robots and equipment aren't lost on a large scale then, from creation to destruction, you've mostly cut manufacturers out of the life cycle of the currency.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Other wrote:

If robots and equipment aren't lost on a large scale then, from creation to destruction, you've cut manufacturers out of the life cycle of the currency.

Of course, but I don't think any of these ideas reduces the amount of combat- Wraithbane's idea of outpost defense against NPC attacks should actually increase it.

Similarly, if the benefits of owning an outpost were increased, I think there would be even more competition for them.

And finally, of course, continuing to introduce NPC bots with higher levels of tech will ensure more destruction.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Other wrote:

If robots and equipment aren't lost on a large scale then, from creation to destruction, you've mostly cut manufacturers out of the life cycle of the currency.

I guess PvP and lagspikes are the only major factors that contribute to robot destruction at the moment. But yea, I also think we should see more destruction.

My 0.02NIC on how to more things would brake/explode:

- More incentives to PvP

- Permanent damage that would sloooowly build up over time ending up in a need to bring the bot to a dedicated industrialists garage for maintenance. No actual bot destruction included but would still require materials.

The war against NIAns that is supposed to be raging

- Regular large scale PvE events. The Syndicate and NIAs natives duking it out. And I still maintain that it would not deviate the game from being a sandbox. (and once again, there are silly amount of definitions and opinions on what a 'sandbox' is, would like to know DEVs version so everyone would be on the same page (sort of))

These PvE events would not just increase the explosion counts but could also bring more meaning to pve and storyline. Syndicate needs to expand and conquer more land/islands from NIAns (There is a ongoing war right? .. hard to really say if you examine the game content) and instead of making it just a line in a patch note stating "three more islands added", the players would actually have to make it happen:

Each Mega Corp would target one new island. Regular pve events would put players on a battelfield against the forces of NIAns. Tactically interesting (battle)maps needed for this phase just like new tools for squad leader (for example ability to mark targets and areas to make random group of players somewhat organized.. and/or Avatar Creations sponsored voice coms?).

-Static defence systems (cannons/minefields) would cover for the lacking AI.

-DEVs could take control of the NIAns. Spawn bots, set targets for cannons/artillery and even pilot the Commander of NIAns, some type of General Megabot that would require a dedicated group to take down and even more so in the middle of a raging battle.

-Some mechanishm to prevent blobbing the poor NIAns and exploding the poor server in the process. If enough people sign up for the event -> several battlefields/fronts?

-Winning battles would further Mega Corps goals and losing them would hamper them. Some sort of Conquest meter <-----I-------> included to know how eachs Mega Corps invasion is proceeding.

-New types of assignments would allow players to directly advance the combat efforts. For example after certain amount of assignments have been completed a non regular/scheduled attack event opens up. Industrialists could build defence structures or some such to aid in the war effort?

-At first only these events (and assignments?) would give access to the new island, but after certain phase is reached in the attack the conquered part of the island would become available. And why not the NIAn controlled part too, but it would be more or less an suicide as the NPCs there would be big and nasty but could provide some very challenging fun for groups.

-New islands could have PvP!? Ability for players to actually hamper the Syndicates efforts to finish conquering the whole island. But this would need somewhat complex alignment system considerations and I have no idea how to make it all happen in a balanced way, but for sure the option is there for the PvP to play big part. (But no one should be forced to PvP, but I guess that discussion is going on and should stay in that other thread)

-Players taking part in the events and completing conquest-related assignments could gather some sort of faction-points? Go up in ranks allowing more options to X? Players would be risking their bots and some sort of reward system should be in place.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Petteri Petraaja - that sounds nice. contains big parts of what i would like to see. (post 26 wink)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Snowstyle wrote:

I expect that at any moment while I am PvEing another player can come and kill me no matter where I am.

/this