1 (edited by Recognizer 2011-01-25 18:05:19)

Topic: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Please post your thoughts about your ideas and expectations of the PvE part in a Sandbox-game, especially Perpetuum.
You can also post what you like, or dislike about the present System.

*edit: PvE was meant as "Player vs. NPC". I used the short PvE because PvM(onsters) didn't sound right to me*

This topic is meant to collect content ideas you would like/expect. Please go into detail as much as you can. If you want to discuss how PvP and PvE should be related, then please use the other topic: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

Rules:
You are free to criticize the posts of others as long as you keep it civil and within the forum rules. Any offtopic or offendig posts will be removed without comment.

regards,
Recognizer

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2 (edited by CoyoteTheClever 2011-01-21 01:39:24)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I expect combat in PvE to be dynamic and strategic. That is to say, it should never feel like like I'm doing something that a computer or sophisticated macro program could, I should have to make intelligent strategic decisions that only a human could make, and that vary depending on the situation.

I also think PvE should play to its own strengths and not try to mimic PvP combat. Maybe it should involve unique circumstances, like instances with unique rules, mobs fit in ways that players wouldn't be able to, or even mini games/puzzles involved to progress within the instance or get bonus items/resources. PvE should basically feel like a different challenge than PvP, not something to replace it for carebears.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Seeing a PvE system that tied the corporations more to the economy would be interesting. In PvP for territorial concerns, one ultimately places their corp in a position to be more profitable. Therefore, seeing more direct corp benefits due to PvE decisions made by its members might be interesting. Something going beyond mere standings increases. Maybe something like PvE goals for a corp that need to be accomplished within a set timeframe. If said goals are accomplished then that corporation gets a bonus to some facet of industry or economics, ie missions that give temp bonuses to refining rate or factory performance.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I would like mission rooms instead of the current in world missions. Introduce a third teleporter on the islands that leads to generic islands that exist solely to complete the mission. Each persons mission would have its own island.

Introduce new skills to allow players to 'scan' down these teleport signals and tune a teleporter to them. This would allow other players to intrude on a mission runner.

For higher level missions make the generics islands PvP enabled.

Have the NPC corp occasional spawn these generic islands and call for agents to help them take it from the robotic inhabitants. These would be limited time events and once resolved the island would be closed to all except high level NPC corp employees. In effect access would disappear. This would simulate the war between the NPC corps and the planet inhabitants. These events could also be PvP enabled with PvP events have particularly good drops from 'bosses'.

Have some NPC corp figure out how to stream video feed back to earth and start broadcasting Robot Gladiator fights on pay-per-view. To encourage combats the corp offers to give the combatants bots for the duration of the fights. This would allow players to engage in PvP without any loss or gain. While some might argue against this it would help those players that might not want to try PvP to at least get a taste without the hurdle of bot loss. Once they see what PvP offers they may see that it is alot of fun.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I expect that at any moment while I am PvEing another player can come and kill me no matter where I am.

Edit: Troll removed - DEV Calvin

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Full loot PVP with complex NPC's and dynamics missions to do while there aren't 10 people online to go PVPing with.

The Game

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I expect pve to be about fun, not about reward. This is pretty much the opposite of the current observer system. I would also like it so that every time I kill a spawn once any rat within 1km responds. If I kill it twice it should be 2km etc etc. Farming rats should be hard and as they don't move or adapt it's not. Perhaps have a couple of dozen patterns of spawn that randomly generate over a week. Each time the new pattern is switched to the rats roam as a spawn group from one location to another.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I think PvE'ers would appreciate more content or mechanics that were geared towards their playstyle, and actually included some things that explicitly could not be accomplished by PvPers. A lot of PvE players are just as competitive as PvPers, but prefer to compete in the economic or political arenas- perhaps expanding these areas a bit? A few examples:

  • Creating a centralized exchange might lead to some real competition among manufacturers. Cornering the market is almost impossible now, but if trades in all the terminals were connected, someone might make a run for it.

  • Maybe a stock market, where everyone could speculate in the futures of corporations? And what if a corp's value on the exchange had in-game repercussions, such as capping their credit or affecting their interest rates?

  • A lot of PvE players are completionists- we like collecting all of the item recipes- which means that a lot of them lose interest once they've collected them all. Introducing more items is one solution, but eventually you're going to fall behind.

  • What about a more flexible system of item modifications, similar to the enchantment systems in other games? Players could specialize in certain areas (armor, or missiles, or sensors, etc.) and be able to offer upgrades that others could not.

  • Above all, make the PvE players an integral part of the whole game: reward their specialization. Right now, there's really very little reason for PvPers to go outside their own corps for anything, and that's not the way things should or do work. If a corp wants to be self-sufficient, let it, but at the expense of reduced capabilities.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Snowstyle wrote:

I expect that at any moment while I am PvEing another player can come and kill me no matter where I am.

Oh, for my instance idea, Snowstyle also brings up a good point. You should always expect that players from other teams can come in and wipe you off the map inside the instance if they find out you are screwing around in there wink (This is another way puzzle solving could be fun, because if you need to solve a puzzle to progress, but an enemy group is on your tail, it could cause some interesting situations in a narrow zone like an instance where just free roaming quickly isn't an option).

10 (edited by Lheomuh 2011-01-21 09:18:33)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

i am awaiting a new PVE insle with mechs and heavy mechs, a REASON to get a heavy mech or later a destroyer...and NO, forcing to pvp an losing a work of WEEKS in  a few minutes will not be a option!

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I hope that PvE continues to be possible with PvP fits. I always felt that one of Eve's great failings was the disparity between PvE and PvP fits. Personally I think PvE AI should mimic player combat as closely as possible. Demobs, E-war, remote reps should all have a place in group PvE especially on Beta islands. You should be able to be PvP ready even when enjoy the PvE content.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

(am copy-pasting some of this from my thread "Farm Online")

The current system is..

Boring and repetitive

They keep spawning and I keep shooting and looting and they keep spawning and I keep shooting and looting and they keep spawning and I keep shooting and..

Assignments. Gaming should be fun, no? So why does the system encourage us to make repetitive circles (some call them "laps" now?) pushing same buttons over and over again. Even if you do different "laps" and harder/longer assignments it all comes down to being boring and repetitive.

Meaningless

The lore of the game is not coherent with the content. It really is just one huge Farmland where you either farm nic, research or standings with no other purpose than to hoard resources to be used in PvP.

To me it seems that the DEVs think PvE players are all powergamers who get enough joy and reason to keep playing out of optimizing their farming.



What I think is needed to fully utilize the PvE potential of Perpetuum:

- Instances with scripted content!
- Evolving and well written storyline
- Regular PvE events
    - npc factions attack syndicate controlled areas/bases (and if succesfull take them over requiring players to take them back)
    - instances/open world events where players attack bases/convoys/something
- If PvE players play well, the syndicates goals should advance and if not the npc factions should advance their goals

Most importantly PvE content should be fun and entertaining, like for example meaningful and challenging.


It can remain a sandbox game even with instanced and PvE-only/focused content.

I'm not 100% against players being vulnerable to PvP all the time but it would take careful balancing to make it actually work. It should not be just a matter of PvP heroes cruising to a mission area and start shooting PvErs.

PvPers like to scream about risk vs. reward, yet they tend to forget how they themselves generally do everything to minimize the risk for themselves. (equip-to-escape, alt scouting, hide behind numbers, spy on enemy channels etc)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

PvE should be fun. PvE doesn't have to be rewarding as long as the mechanic is complex and multi-staged.

There should be some PvP element in it. You should not always be safe but you should at least stand a chance to get away.

PvE in this game currently is a corporate level thing. You need the kernels and that's about it. Anyone playing this game for the PvE content will be sadly disappointed.

Make a feature where players create content and missions. Where they can create their own terminals and invite others. Where they are the law of the land and there will be SOMEONE that realises that if they let other people in and police their land on behalf on the syndicate then it'll make a lot more money.

Bring back the police towers but make them not pwnsauce. Add new islands where you can build your own terminal where you make the rules. Will you be a dragon or a trader? Lead your army against the hordes of NPC's or perhaps take the easier route and strip mine your island and move on.

Options would be nice.

The Game

14 (edited by Seridur 2011-01-21 10:50:32)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

First of all I think we need more land, more islands with different challenges. 

Make everything more random, more unpredictable. Right now the best thing to do is to farm unchallenging mobs for hours, the same spawn, at the same spot with the same tactic.
One way to change them is to make the spawn stronger in time when they are being farmed, different level and type mobs. And after a point they either dissapear or they start spawning less often, don't drop as good loot as they used to etc.
Assignements could be more random too.. maybe not sending always to the same stack, transport missions could change the target location. (The truly rewarding transport missions should be from one beta outpost to an other beta island's outpost)

I don't know how instances could work but they should not be safe havens or they should  be much less rewarding than the open world assigments. One big problem without instances that you can not make difficult enough encounters which could not be countered by just bringing more men.. and when there are many they will too become  boring farming

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I'd love to see some PVE longterm goals. For example an upgrade to the mission system, something with relation (e.g. higher mission payment for having a higher relation, with soft caps to relation maximum) or so. Maybe upgrades to outposts, if many missions are done in that outposts or many rats are killed in the sphere of it (similar to solar system upgrades in EVE).

16 (edited by KaiTech 2011-01-21 12:59:52)

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

First off ... no instances wich are seperated from the main world plz, as that would defy the main appeal that Perpetuum has, namely the open world sandbox.

If ppl want more complex PVE, a good Idea would be to create something like NPC faction strongholds on remote parts of the Islands, these Strongholds would be like a Fort with different defensive area's, starting with weak NPC's wich would gradually become stronger the more they get killed an the more the Player/group of players progressen inside the Stronghold. The defensive mechanisms of these strongholds could include Stationary weapon platforms aswell, wich also could be killed by the Players.
The goal would be to "conquer" these strongholds by killing a certain percentage of their defence, or maybe all,...
After you have passed like 2-3 "levels" of increasingly difficult spawns, you would come to the "Boss level" where you would have something like Officer/Overseer Bots with tremendous firepower, this then would be the last fight of the Stronghold siege, if you win the fight you get to destroy the Command Nexus of that Stronghold wich would reward you handsomly by dropping somekind of really rare stuff, like a very special type of mod or Kernel or Decoder or whatever.

Once the Command Nexus Destroyed, a Timer starts and after an hour or so the Stronghold and their NPC waves would be fully rebuilt and ready for the next siege.

All this would happen in the open world we have, no instances, no sharded server ...all in 1 World.
Ofc the Strongholds wich would be found on Alpha Islands would be alot less interesting and worthwhile than their counterparts on Beta islands.

Hope you guys like my Idea ...got plenty more ...
comments and critics welcome aslong as U stay civil :-)


cya in game soon

edit: forgot to say that the Strongholds on the Beta islands would also add incentive to PVP fight for, I mean the corp/alliance controling a good/valuable Stronghold will have an advantage over others, so their ennemy's have a good reason to try and deny them access to it or eaven try and control it themselves ...
I can see this turn into wonderfull battles where you have NPC's and Players all fighting together and against each other ... fun times :-D

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I want to see much more from PvE system in PO. First of all: in sandbox world PvE environment must be sandboxed too.

Mostly i don't like farming current farming style. Now farming is boring, because it is stupid: you take your *** and maybe few your friends and move to the farming spot. In the best traditions of rambo you killing endless waves of the mobs on farming spot. Wait... nians have  much more advantage in technological knowlege base and war equipment. Why they periodically sending their troops to the same spots in large numbers? What nians doing at this spots, except of stupid walk from one point to another? This is nians, they have advanced AI. The can do what agents can, even much more. Instead they teleporting to our claimed insland in suicide style. Observers are awesome npc, but they are looks like rare exceptions of standard mmo mob system. We are playing non standard game now, so we can expect non standard approaches to almost dogmatic mmo traditions.
Im expect next:

  • Absolutelly new approach to farm, like smart mobs groups and random spots. Sandboxed environment deciding ammount and location of the next location, to teleport nians squad

  • PvE events: nians can easily teleport large number of troops to random location, to capture outpost, to gather resources or to disrupt daily player operations. For example sandbox AI aproximated that at 01:22 there will be no miners at domhalarn epriton field, so at this time large group of builders and warriors teleporting to that spot to gather valuable ore. They gathering ore for few hours and teleporting out. Players can disrupt their operation, and gather something valuable from them.

  • Also i have thoughts about complicated AI, what have resourse base, production and important goal like disrupt human operations in NIA. But i think this is really complicated *** to develop, because this idea require tonns of human hours for developing.

  • And at last im expecting much more interesting mission system, like dynamic missions (you need to destroy nian base, what they are built yesterday) and global mission context, what assuming that each mission, even smallest t1, somehow changing syndicate business. For example: if players done 100500 recon task on Nuimquol forces, Nuimquol union will send their troops more often. Or when players will deliver 1024 cosole from tma to tmb, then syndicate will set up something juicy on the market. We can expect wonderfull corporation actions, like planned NIAns op attack, or increased defence around stermonit because of disrupting telodica manufacturing operations

  • No instances. This is sandbox.

So the main idea of my TLRD is: each agent move changing world: each kill, each mission, each buy order somehow changing state of the game. Players will know that their action changing PO world. And players must feel that NIAns are much organised that stupid mobs what we can see now. This will be really awesome and fantasic.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Space Hulks - Derilict ships in orbit above the planet that you can get missions to.  You can teleport up there, take over some specific system and do something to complete the mission.
What you take over could for example be

a 'farm dome' that you have to control the fluctuating environment long enough to harvest some 'crops'.(harvest mission)

Retrieve a data pack from deep in the ship avoiding any roaming mobs (stealth mission)

Destroy demolition bots of an enemy core who are trying to retreive some weapon.

You get the idea.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

I think any PvE should tie into and fuel PvP territorial conquest in a sandbox setting.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

The ability for players to generate assignments, for an example of a very nice system take a look at the mission system in Face of Mankind.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Alexander wrote:

PvE should be fun. PvE doesn't have to be rewarding as long as the mechanic is complex and multi-staged.

There should be some PvP element in it. You should not always be safe but you should at least stand a chance to get away.

PvE in this game currently is a corporate level thing. You need the kernels and that's about it. Anyone playing this game for the PvE content will be sadly disappointed.

Make a feature where players create content and missions. Where they can create their own terminals and invite others. Where they are the law of the land and there will be SOMEONE that realises that if they let other people in and police their land on behalf on the syndicate then it'll make a lot more money.

Bring back the police towers but make them not pwnsauce. Add new islands where you can build your own terminal where you make the rules. Will you be a dragon or a trader? Lead your army against the hordes of NPC's or perhaps take the easier route and strip mine your island and move on.

Options would be nice.

If you read nothing else in this post, read the last line. The point he makes (and quite a few others it seems) is that there needs to be a player driven factor that currently isn't there. sure, people "hold" islands, but what for? there isn't really isn't anything changed by those people or created by those people, and heck there are only three of those places to go to.

I agree in that I'd like to see some more land ( and even smaller areas in between could be fun/useful ) and a lot more control and choices as to what you see and encounter on that land. It'd be interesting to see an upkeep system in place, so that you can set things up on your island ( stations, building, guards, whatever ) and they cost certain things to run/maintain and how you achieve that is up to you. Like Alex said, trade like a madman to make the money, or kill/maim/butcher and take it from others?

One thing that would DEFINITELY be an issue, is making this EVE 2.0. I see a lot of people who would love nothing more than to have a second chance at the start of EVE, and push VERY hard to make the game a land based clone, don't do that. it'll not only ruin the game, it will destroy it, quickly. A lot of people are here because they want something different than EVE, but with a great concept that is on a similar level. THAT is the route to go. In other words, add perpetuum to the list of fantastic Sci-Fi mmos', not the list of mmo's that sort of resemble EVE and will forever live in it's shadow.

Contact me in game via e-mail or PM for -CS- recruitment information.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

PvE should should be just that, PvE. Mixing PvE and PvP is just asking for ganking and griefing. Thats one of the most certain paths to a narrow niche market(and limited profit).

Good PvE is more than endless grind. It should involve many tactical and strategic choices. It should link into the games story, and engage the players in creating their own story.  It should also proceed in phases. Dropping new people off the deep end, is a certain method to lose them in the modern world.

It also has to be perceived as, and BE fair. Mobs should have to follow the EXACT same rules that players do. If a player can't shoot through a given obstruction, then neither should a mob be able to. The same goes for impassible terrain, and everything else.

Over and above that it should be enjoyable. Thats many things to many people, but the last thing Dev's should do is force players down any given path. Doing that is why many of us have left EVE, with the coming of Incursions. 

Some people like exploring. Some like mining. Some like crafting. Some like collecting things. Others like fighting. Perpetuum seems to have a lot of all of that already. Just enhance it, and build upon the already excellent foundation thats already been laid.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Anyone remember earth and beyond? That had a decent story line and there were events that happened that involved large groups getting together to stop invasions from the alien hords called the Vrix (i think thats what they were called, was sooo long ago).

Then EA took over and well the rest is history.

There could be staged events like having to repel the factions as they come to claim areas back from us. The could be instanced due to how large they might be, but not necessarily so, just depends if the server can handle it. There could be missions that involve more than one eliment like having to fught for some land area and then have to mine or recover some things to build something that is needed to be made to help fight an incursion. This would get more of a group to do it due to all the different eliments needed to complete it.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

Wraithbane wrote:

PvE should should be just that, PvE. Mixing PvE and PvP is just asking for ganking and griefing. Thats one of the most certain paths to a narrow niche market(and limited profit).

Not that I'm against the fact that the company needs money to survive, I realize there are responsibilities and I would certainly want the people who make this game possible to get a great pay day, but it's not just about money. the moment you start making a game for profit alone, it's simply dead. What you're asking for in this paragraph is essentially your standard mmo, with no consequences, no REAL skill, and no intelligence required.

It doesn't matter how advanced "AI" will get, because it's still a program, and it's never truly random. The only thing that can make PVE truly challenging is the randomness that comes from other players possibly helping/ruining/stealing/killing/changing the field of play.

Also, there is no way PVE can be without the dangers of PVP because you're then truly guaranteeing that the market will primarily come from that and that alone. All the mods/mins/nic you could ask for just by running missions with complete 100% safety? That's truly game-breaking, especially with the free market setup.

Just like this game isn't EVE, it isn't WoW either, and it shouldn't be. Why not create something unique that balances the best of both worlds, and make something truly different, but that works and actually makes people WANT to play it? It can be done, but not by copying already done stuff that doesn't work like that.

Contact me in game via e-mail or PM for -CS- recruitment information.

Re: What do you expect from PvE in a Sandboxgame

L1fe3looD wrote:

Not that I'm against the fact that the company needs money to survive, I realize there are responsibilities and I would certainly want the people who make this game possible to get a great pay day, but it's not just about money. the moment you start making a game for profit alone, it's simply dead. What you're asking for in this paragraph is essentially your standard mmo, with no consequences, no REAL skill, and no intelligence required.

Wraithbane is right: it is foolish to ask PvE players to get more involved in PvP- you'll lose plenty of people if you do.

If you're interested in keeping the PvE players, the trick is to make them relevant to the game without forcing them to play in a fashion they don't want. At the moment, the game clearly favors PvPers: you can mine, research, and build fairly well with almost all of your EP spent in PvP extensions, but the reverse is not true.

Why not introduce some more complexity, but frame it in a way that PvPers and PvEers must rely on each other? It already exists in the form of epitron and high-end kernels but the dynamic is imbalanced: an industrialist cannot obtain these things without a PvPer's help, but there's nothing an industrialist can do that a PvPer can't (sure, with less efficiency, but the point remains).

What if we reversed that equation, and introduced some gear or mods that only a dedicated industrialist could make? Corps would be forced either to create/recruit dedicated industrialists (the mediocre solution), or engage in actual business transactions with them (the smarter choice).

Obviously, from the PvE side, the EP system is not sufficient for differentiating skills. Perhaps some additional mechanic is necessary- maybe an experience-based system, where miners can only gather certain resources after they've harvested one million units, or manufacturers can make T5 goodies only after building 1000 assault bots. The idea here is to make some things exclusive to the PvE side, where a PvPers alts are ok for gathering basics, but the real rewards only come to those who invest the time and resources.

L1fe3looD wrote:

It doesn't matter how advanced "AI" will get, because it's still a program, and it's never truly random. The only thing that can make PVE truly challenging is the randomness that comes from other players possibly helping/ruining/stealing/killing/changing the field of play.

This is a pretty narrow-minded understanding of "challenge." If the game introduced a few economic systems, such as interconnected markets, or a stock exchange, there would be a new level of complexity, and successful players and corps would have to meet the challenges of long-term planning and diplomacy.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***