Re: Overall tuning balance

basically, noone gonna deploy an empty seth against your mesmer so you never will see such a one-shot, that's it. theorycrafting and "what-if" stuff doesn't really work.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Overall tuning balance

Line wrote:

basically, noone gonna deploy an empty seth against your mesmer so you never will see such a one-shot, that's it. theorycrafting and "what-if" stuff doesn't really work.

yes, practically, you will see LWF fitted bots with 30% less hitpoints by default, and ofc, the example was with the combat heavy that has by default the most hitpoints and highest kinetic resists.

meaning: any other non-armor fit is DEAD after one or max two volleys. you could start theocrafting how many hits from a single gun a lwf fitted assault will take:

= max 1

given that there is now a chance that those guns miss, it still takes only a single hit from one of the 6 magnetic guns to explode. if you fit armor plates, you surface size will grow and the chance to get hit with it.
as a result there is no way around stacking uni-hardeners or shields.

and that because the example was using UDC (Universal Death Charge?) slugs that simply deal all damage types...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Overall tuning balance

Annihilator wrote:

yes, practically, you will see LWF fitted bots with 30% less hitpoints by default, and ofc, the example was with the combat heavy that has by default the most hitpoints and highest kinetic resists.

meaning: any other non-armor fit is DEAD after one or max two volleys. you could start theocrafting how many hits from a single gun a lwf fitted assault will take:

= max 1

given that there is now a chance that those guns miss, it still takes only a single hit from one of the 6 magnetic guns to explode. if you fit armor plates, you surface size will grow and the chance to get hit with it.
as a result there is no way around stacking uni-hardeners or shields.

and that because the example was using UDC (Universal Death Charge?) slugs that simply deal all damage types...

i think you're somewhere wrong in your nembers.

If says a mesmer has hypotetic 1000% damage per gun, using pure kinetic ammo with says 50 kinetic damage, it makes 500 kinetic damage per gun, 3k total

that's pure damage, no resists, etc

let's now take it more realistic - 1139% damage per gun and UDC ammo

22*11.39 = 250.58*6 = 1503.48
10*11.39 = 113.9*6 = 683.4
10*11.39 = 113.9*6 = 683.4
10*11.39 = 113.9*6 = 683.4

, which makes total of 3553.68

I would hardly call it a one-shot

*little hint: 1139% of bonus doesn't mean that you have to multiple on 1139, divide it by 100 first, because it's percents

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Overall tuning balance

how do you get down to 1000% damage mod on that gun?
dont have a mesmer, but this will do

here for comparison, the three laser types:
Seth mk2 6-tuner fit

to get close to your "realistic" example, i will shoot npc grunts. with the med HCL laser thate has less the 1900% mod and weith apoc ammo that is similar to udc

i do 600 to 1200(crit) damage per shot from a single laser, means killing armored castels in one or two hits.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Overall tuning balance

Confirmed.  One shotting mech and heavymech npcs with gropho full tunings, (legatus w/ 4 tunings takes 3 cycles or so by comparison.) 
The even accum penalty across weapon types unfortunately favors missiles, because of slow cycle and low base accum.
I think addressing the base accum on weapons might bring this back to some balance.  But even still, if people have the ability to fit an alpha strike dps fit, they absolutely will.  Think the overall damage modifiers are just too high.

As much fun as it is for PVE; PVP will be like a western showdown Quick Draw match.
Actually, that would be funny to watch the first couple of times, but not after that becomes the governing meta (DPS heavies on gate, blapping anything that comes in).

Until fix, I'll be grinding kernals big_smile

...new logi bot is nice smile [sorry off topic]

56 (edited by Line 2017-02-17 18:17:32)

Re: Overall tuning balance

with that, you will have just around 5 alpha-strikes then empty. practically, it's useless in both PvP and PvE

UPD: but yes, you can one-shot something if full-tunings. theoretically big_smile

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

57 (edited by Mroq 2017-02-17 19:57:12)

Re: Overall tuning balance

Line wrote:

theorycrafting and "what-if" stuff doesn't really work.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed, preferably using a written, predefined, protocol of observations and experiments. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of knowledge.

Wikipedia.

Re: Overall tuning balance

Mroq wrote:
Line wrote:

theorycrafting and "what-if" stuff doesn't really work.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed, preferably using a written, predefined, protocol of observations and experiments. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of knowledge.

Wikipedia.

Indeed. However, theoretically, you can one-shot up to 5 heavies with your Seth, but practically you will probably loose to one assault.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Overall tuning balance

With 15m dispersion and 3m surface on assault I got 20% chance to hit. Unless plated (and therefore easier to hit) that 1 gun hit will kill it. With 6 guns (each having 20% chance to hit) I have 73.79% chance for a single gun to connect.

60 (edited by Line 2017-02-17 23:18:52)

Re: Overall tuning balance

Oh text pvp huh?

2 supressors and 1 ecm on an assault mk2 reducing your 73.79% chances close to zero. How long it will take for your Seth to lock me being double-supressed? How many times my ECM will reset your lock while you're trying to relock me? heh, I don't even need ECM, being double-supressed you will lose your lock with ease simply by distance.

once again, your numbers work only on paper. if you managed to one-shot an npc or two, that doesn't mean real players will act the same.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

61 (edited by Mroq 2017-02-18 05:03:12)

Re: Overall tuning balance

I dont go out solo in heavies. They are not meant for such purpose.

Single Vaga support with dual remote sensor and that assault and whatever else came along is gone before able to jump the teleport back.

And if we are talking solo counters then dual sensor amp and 2 stabilisers and that assault is in the world of pain.

It is so easy to point counter fits.

[EDIT] A very, very similar game is called "spreadsheets in space" for a reason.

Re: Overall tuning balance

Mroq wrote:

I dont go out solo in heavies. They are not meant for such purpose.

Single Vaga support with dual remote sensor and that assault and whatever else came along is gone before able to jump the teleport back.

And if we are talking solo counters then dual sensor amp and 2 stabilisers and that assault is in the world of pain.

It is so easy to point counter fits.

[EDIT] A very, very similar game is called "spreadsheets in space" for a reason.

aaaand here we started "what-if"

of course you don't go solo, same as your enemy doesn't. and of course you can put 2xSA on your head, but then it's not 4000% dmg and you're still vilnerable to ECM. you also can put 2xECCM to counter ECM but that takes 2 more tunings out. and if X then Y and so on.

but then I should ask you why on earth you're swinging here your 6xtunings gauss Seth vs assault here?
practically you will never see those two fighting 1 vs 1

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

63 (edited by Mroq 2017-02-18 09:54:06)

Re: Overall tuning balance

[EDIT to the post above] If 2xSA makes You vulnerable to ECM then we are done talking.

I am not going to wait few days as I promissed - sorry! Fun facts:

1.
Kain 4 firearms tunings + 4 autocannons = 4 x 1623.08% = 6492.32%
Vagabond 6 firearms tunings + 3 autocannons = 3 x 2691.81% = 8075.43%

Next time you see them Ewar mechs go solo - BEWARE!
Similar thing happens with cameleon vs yagel. Its even comparable to arbalest for crying out loud.

2.
Mesmer MK2 5 magno tunings + 6 gauss guns = 6 x 3162.41% = 18974.46%
Seth MK2 6 magno tunings + 6 gauss guns = 6 x 4111.13% = 24666.78%

So who screamed the loudest that Mesmers are OP?

Do you want to know how much more dps were mesmers doing over seths with gauss before both tuning patches? 5.13%
How much more DPS were Seths doing with lasers over mesmers? 42.42%

Conclusions:
1. Tunings cant be more than racial bonus (unless point 2 and 3). (+10% damage and -10% cycle time = 22.22% dps increase)
2. Blue combats need -1 leg and +1 head slot. And this is not a very recent issue.
3. With lowest head slot count syndicate combats are bad, really bad. (they were ok when tunings were utterly useless just before this patch). I would go with more headslots on par with others and lower leg slots to make them more squishy becouse its not MK2.
4. Active repping fits are unviable again.
5. PvE is really fun now so I wouldn't go down on DPS all that much.
6. Please stop going from one extreme to another.

Considering recent PvE experience and points above (head slots equality! work places for nuimqol!):
(Power of module% / accumulator usage%)

Enwar tunings:
T0 = 10/15
T1/T2 = 15/15
T3 = 15/10
T4 = 25/25

Industrial tunings:
T0 = 10/20
T1/T2 = 20/20
T3 = 20/10
T4 = 30/30

Repair tunings:
T0 = 10/20
T1/T2 = 20/10
T3 = 20/0
T4 = 40/20

Weapon tunings:
T0 = 10/20
T1/T2 = 20/20
T3 = 20/10
T4 = 30/30

WEAPONS

Current damage per accumulator of T4 weapons:
Light missiles: 40
Light laser: 5
Light EM: 4.8
Light AC: 18

Medium compact: 60
MEdium ballistic: 40
LCL: 2.5
HCL: 2
Gauss: 2.4
Medium EM: 1.33
Medium AC and MG used to be both 18 can't bother to calc how it is now as most posters here don't bother comprehending anyway and it seems balanced toward each other now.

Should be (acc use per shot this time to make things harder for some):
Light missiles: 4
Light lasers: 4
Light EM: 4
Light AC: 2

Medium launcher: 10
HCL: 12
LCL: 10
Gauss: 10
Medium EM: 12 (becouse before was WTF!)
Medium AC and MG: x2 of current

I will also post a difference between 40% and 30% bonus with 6 tuners equipped:
753% vs 482% (2 shots to kill unplated heavies and mechs then).

On an end note:
If one does not comprehend mathematics one should not post in topics involving numbers.

Re: Overall tuning balance

Mroq wrote:

If 2xSA makes You vulnerable to ECM then we are done talking.

It doesn't. Heavy Mechs are ALREADY vulnerable with their 85 Ew Strength

Mroq wrote:

Next time you see them Ewar mechs go solo - BEWARE!

Next time you see them Ewar mechs go solo - lock them and double-supress them

Mroq wrote:

Do you want to know how much more dps were mesmers doing over seths with gauss before both tuning patches? 5.13%
How much more DPS were Seths doing with lasers over mesmers? 42.42%

Seths were doing more DPS with Gausses than Mesmers even at time when we had Epriton on gammas. Are you sure you played the game before this patch?

Mroq wrote:

Conclusions:
1. Tunings cant be more than racial bonus (unless point 2 and 3). (+10% damage and -10% cycle time = 22.22% dps increase)

currently tunings doesn't affect cycle time

Mroq wrote:

2. Blue combats need -1 leg and +1 head slot. And this is not a very recent issue.

with that, they will become OP because magnetic weapons are already having the biggest Alpha. the only reason Seths are better is because 1 extra tuning they can fit

Mroq wrote:

3. With lowest head slot count syndicate combats are bad, really bad. (they were ok when tunings were utterly useless just before this patch). I would go with more headslots on par with others and lower leg slots to make them more squishy becouse its not MK2.

the only thing I can agree

Mroq wrote:

4. Active repping fits are unviable again.

oh god they nerfed ERP-tank again lol

Mroq wrote:

5. PvE is really fun now so I wouldn't go down on DPS all that much.

It became as easy as it was before previous balance patch

Mroq wrote:

6. Please stop going from one extreme to another.

it's not extreme, it's not even bad, it's just you too excited of maths and the numbers

Mroq wrote:

numbers

practical experiments showed that having more than 3 tunings doesn't worth unless youre in a big party. but even then it's more or less counterable.

such a Seth with 6x tunings and LCL lasers (not even Gauss) does one-shot NPC mechs up to 3lvl (didn't had anything bigger nearby), but it goes completely dry in just 5 shots. so to feel comfortable you would need something like 2 support bots with 4+ energy transferers each, probably giving you RSA as well, and probably an another support bot with remote repairs. Such a Seth, on other hand, can be double-supressed by a Zenith to negate RSA effect, and then perma-jammed by a Vagabond. one extra Vagabond can deal with support bots.

does that worth it - to brin such a Seth? I doubt so. Well, maybe for base sieges.

so in most cases ppl wolud fit up to 2-3 tunings which is ok.

my opinion though, big bots could have more HP, more surface size and more dispersion values on their guns - to compensate that higher damage on each other and to negate it even more to small bots. armor plates, with mass increased, could also provide more extra hp proportionally to mass increase

syndicate bots should either have 1 extra head slot or bigger bot bonuses for firearms because curently they are weak

also to fix that Seth stronger than Mesmer I would suggest to allow only fit just racial and syndicate tunings on bot

also to make Mroq calm down, I would suggest to limit number of tunings equipped by 2-3 max


Mroq wrote:

On an end note:
If one does not comprehend mathematics one should not post in topics involving numbers.

Maths are on paper. bots are on field. whatever you theoretized here we can reproduce

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

65 (edited by Mroq 2017-02-18 15:58:23)

Re: Overall tuning balance

Mroq wrote:

If 2xSA makes You vulnerable to ECM then we are done talking.

Line wrote:

It doesn't. Heavy Mechs are ALREADY vulnerable with their 85 Ew Strength

With less than 3s lock time, close to rate of fire - knock yourself out with ECMs.

Mroq wrote:

Do you want to know how much more dps were mesmers doing over seths with gauss before both tuning patches? 5.13%
How much more DPS were Seths doing with lasers over mesmers? 42.42%

Line wrote:

Seths were doing more DPS with Gausses than Mesmers even at time when we had Epriton on gammas. Are you sure you played the game before this patch?

I'm not sure how 3% crit, 7.5% dmg and 7.5% rof from +1 tuning is better than 10%dmg and 10% rof from racial tho. Your maths are astonishing. Please share Your patterns.

Mroq wrote:

Conclusions:
1. Tunings cant be more than racial bonus (unless point 2 and 3). (+10% damage and -10% cycle time = 22.22% dps increase)

Line wrote:

currently tunings doesn't affect cycle time

No they don't. But racial bonuses do as is stated above and calculated to raw %. Reading comprehension recommended.

Mroq wrote:

2. Blue combats need -1 leg and +1 head slot. And this is not a very recent issue.

Line wrote:

with that, they will become OP because magnetic weapons are already having the biggest Alpha. the only reason Seths are better is because 1 extra tuning they can fit

Becouse alpha damage is the only stat needed. Screw dps, screw range, screw ehp. Alpha FTW!


Mroq wrote:

4. Active repping fits are unviable again.

Line wrote:

oh god they nerfed ERP-tank again lol

Never used ERP and probably never will. Where did I mention ERP again?

Mroq wrote:

5. PvE is really fun now so I wouldn't go down on DPS all that much.

Line wrote:

It became as easy as it was before previous balance patch

Yeah, becouse 4 times more damage is only just as good.

Mroq wrote:

6. Please stop going from one extreme to another.

Line wrote:

it's not extreme, it's not even bad, it's just you too excited of maths and the numbers

2 shoting observers is totally the right amount of DPS. I never said its bad, I am personally loving the whole change. It is unbalanced tho.

Mroq wrote:

numbers

Line wrote:

practical experiments showed that having more than 3 tunings doesn't worth unless youre in a big party. but even then it's more or less counterable.

Wow, You must have done hours of practical experiments since yesterday.

Line wrote:

such a Seth with 6x tunings and LCL lasers (not even Gauss) does one-shot NPC mechs up to 3lvl (didn't had anything bigger nearby), but it goes completely dry in just 5 shots. so to feel comfortable you would need something like 2 support bots with 4+ energy transferers each, probably giving you RSA as well, and probably an another support bot with remote repairs. Such a Seth, on other hand, can be double-supressed by a Zenith to negate RSA effect, and then perma-jammed by a Vagabond. one extra Vagabond can deal with support bots.

does that worth it - to brin such a Seth? I doubt so. Well, maybe for base sieges.

so in most cases ppl wolud fit up to 2-3 tunings which is ok.

Nope, You clearly didn't.

Line wrote:

also to fix that Seth stronger than Mesmer I would suggest to allow only fit just racial and syndicate tunings on bot

also to make Mroq calm down, I would suggest to limit number of tunings equipped by 2-3 max

Yay limits. That solves stuff! We need limits, more limits! Lets go all the way and make robots have perma fits.

Mroq wrote:

On an end note:
If one does not comprehend mathematics one should not post in topics involving numbers.

Line wrote:

Maths are on paper. bots are on field. whatever you theoretized here we can reproduce

Field? What field? Oh you mean those computed pixels on a screen that use patterns and calculations to move and shoot each other? Wait... Are you saying computers started using different - better mathematics?! RUN! EVERYONE RUN!

Re: Overall tuning balance

Mroq wrote:

Field? What field? Oh you mean those computed pixels on a screen that use patterns and calculations to move and shoot each other? Wait... Are you saying computers started using different - better mathematics?! RUN! EVERYONE RUN!

you've should start from that. we are simply playing different games. mine is Permetuum, and yours is Spreadsheets Online

but don't be shy, here, let me show you everything on dolls

Oh hi kids, I'm Mr Seth. people are calling me 6-tuning Joe, because I'm strong and can one-shot everyone! look how strong I am!

but wait a second, what's that? it takes whole 8 seconds to lock a target from me, and I have just 85 Ew Strength so Evil Vagabond can perma-jam me! no no no NO NO THIS IS SO WRONG!! I have to deal something with that! here, let me see...

done! look at my new shiny 2x Sensor Amps! do you like how they shine? with them, I can lock whenever with just 2.84 seconds! now go try your ECM on me, I will relock faster than you apply them!...wait, where is my damage gone? I NOW CAN'T ONE-SHOT STUFF! and I heard an Evil Zenith can put 2x Sensor Supressors on me negating my Sensor Amps... with that I will suffer from Evil Vagabond's ECMs again! UNACCEPTABLE!

Look at mee, Evil Vafabond, LOOK AT MEE! with those 235Ew Strength provided bu 2x ECCM, I'm now IMMUNE to your ECMs!...why are you looking behind me and laugh? WHAT? Evil Zenith again, he jammed me and it now takes AGES to lock something, even if Evil Vagabond didn't jamming me! also, no damage again....oh bite me!

hi Evil Vagabond, hi Evil Zenith! I have some special surprise for you... like THIS!!! 2x Sensor Amps with 2x ECCMs will be my shield against you. now you can't stop me to one-shot stuff with my.... 1070% damage??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

here, I hope this little kids story will help you to undestand your "maths" better

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

67 (edited by Annihilator 2017-02-18 18:39:12)

Re: Overall tuning balance

god thanks 99% of the pvp matches are out in the open,
not around a teleporter or a terminal, so situations where one guy with huge alpha strike, double'RSA and fast-lock nexus supported, is standing there, and random guy is still watching a timer go down until he can be locked,to decide what to do in those 2 seconds he has before the screen turns dark again.


right?:fuuu:

btw, i hope you guys use the time with this balance to get rid of unwanted gamma buildings....

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Overall tuning balance

Annihilator wrote:

god thanks 99% of the pvp matches are out in the open,
not around a teleporter or a terminal, so situations where one guy with huge alpha strike, double'RSA and fast-lock nexus supported, is standing there, and random guy is still watching a timer go down until he can be locked,to decide what to do in those 2 seconds he has before the screen turns dark again.


right?:fuuu:

btw, i hope you guys use the time with this balance to get rid of unwanted gamma buildings....

so? don't store all your assets on one station on beta, pay more attention when TPing, undock with Arkhe first, guard your island, or revenge with camping your enemy. like noone before could catch you on TP or under the station

the whole idea is fine, it just need some finetuning, like more hp for big bots, more hp plates to add, more surface size for big bots and more dispersion/explosion size for big guns

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Overall tuning balance

Thats a cool story. But I have another one.

A 6-tuning Joe took a vaga friend with double RSA and rolled over everyone else.

The End.

Re: Overall tuning balance

Mroq wrote:

Thats a cool story. But I have another one.

A 6-tuning Joe took a vaga friend with double RSA and rolled over everyone else.

The End.

Oh, and that vaga friend is immune to ECM/Supessors? Or maybe he makes 6-tuning Joe immune with those RSA?

Or maybe they both are invincible and cannot be shooted from long distance?

Or maybe they two together prevent their enemies to bring some friends too?

And what about Energy Transferers? Vaga friend alone will be too busy providing double RSA. Will you call another friend? Or will you call Riveller friend instead?

How many friends will you need to call to be able to perform such a one-shot kill? What prevents all those people, grouped togehter, to insta-kill players with "common" fits?

Everything could be imba if described as X + friend.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

71 (edited by Mroq 2017-02-19 09:27:15)

Re: Overall tuning balance

You havn't tested much have You?

I could have debunk all You said but I'm done arguing Theory vs Fantasy.

Re: Overall tuning balance

Mroq wrote:

You havn't tested much have You?

I could have debunk all You said but I'm done arguing Theory vs Fantasy.

I've done enough tests to make conclusions. I've also found issues and counters to solve them. Did you do the same? Did you ever tried to think? Or 26k% on your spreadsheets is too much for you?

Anyway, just stay Alpha if you're so scared. No problem at all.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Overall tuning balance

ROFL

74 (edited by DarkTerror Yesterday 08:06:37)

Re: Overall tuning balance

Looks like both have a valid point.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Data_vs_Information

There is a subtle difference between data and information. Data are the facts or details from which information is derived. Individual pieces of data are rarely useful alone. For data to become information, data needs to be put into context.

Spreadsheet vs On Terrain Testing.
Costs a lot (Time and or Bots) to work out what's going on if you don't do both.

Spreadsheet Data + Fitting Skills = Fit options
Fit options + Tactics = Plan
Hopefully your Plan is better than the oppositions.

If first you don't succeed, try again.
Plan-Do-Check-Act (PDCA) Cycle
http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/proj … cycle.html

Thanks for all the effort.