1 (edited by Annihilator 2016-11-09 22:56:55)

Topic: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Dear DEV Zoom
with the recent change of Tunings, to incorporate a penalty,
i discovered a small ... or should i say, rather big imbalance regarding the BASE accumulator consumption of the two medium T4 firearms

they both consume 2 AP per shot

the AC has a cycletime of 8s
the MG has a cycletime of 3s

the MG has 1.44x the DPS of the AC, but as it is now, 2.66x the accumulator consumption!

with the new tunings penalty, this difference grows exponentially with the number of tunings - but not the DPS.
so the tunings usabilty is not the same for both weapons of the same tiear and class.

suggestion:
1. you equalize that by adjusting the base accu consumption of the MG to 1.08AP or
2. you make the tunings somehow do the same thing on all weapons.

btw. i have only checked t4's since by design the other tiers are just crafting components.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

2 (edited by Annihilator 2016-11-09 23:15:32)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

to make that clearer -
the (supposed to be) accumulator based weapons, the Lasers:

  • T4 HCL Laser
    Accu: 4 AP/s
    DPS: 21.66 %/s

  • T4 LCL Laser
    Accu: 3.84 AP/s
    DPS: 32%/s

the short range weapon does 1.47 times the DPS, for mere 0.96 times  difference in AP consumption.

the AP consumption here is almost equal, so the tunings penalty, of only 30% more accumulator doesnt shift that difference that horribly as it does for firearms.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

For the love of mike what on earth was the logic in this tuner change. Was there a complaint or something. It just spanks of another random stab at a balance that was not a problem. Why not have just limited the amount of tuning or diminished returns or something.

4 (edited by Hunter 2016-11-10 12:09:18)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

i'm even not going login after patch. I heard enough. smile
Full capacitor discharging after six shots in pretorian gropho. wink

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

I liked the indi tuner change, however the weapons were never tested.  try shooting an observer with no 1 to no tuners.

6 (edited by Line 2016-11-10 17:06:52)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

I'd more like to see some extra AP on Echelon. Current amount is just....

Upd. But I agree with Anni. MG can have some more damage or sorta.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

3 offtopic, one on topic comments... great.

erm line... i dont think that the MGs need more damage, they need there AP consumption adjusted.

BUT... all damage tunings need their damage component adjusted with this patch. not much, but at least 10% damage at T4 should be done. (keep cycle bonus and crit the same)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Annihilator wrote:

3 offtopic, one on topic comments... great.

erm line... i dont think that the MGs need more damage, they need there AP consumption adjusted.

BUT... all damage tunings need their damage component adjusted with this patch. not much, but at least 10% damage at T4 should be done. (keep cycle bonus and crit the same)

well they either need more damage (actually, ammo stats, not guns) or less accu usage.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

9 (edited by Goffer 2016-11-11 07:51:04)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

The change in tuning was an attempt to correct the problem, that since almost 2 years one more head tuning is more important than bot bonus, causing the Seth MK2 with additional head slot beeing the better Messmer for Gauss and ofc beeing the most important PvE bot at all.

And I really appreciate that Devs did something, although it is still not finished

10 (edited by Mroq 2016-11-13 07:28:33)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Every new robot wave theres a change so im betting balance is in progress.
Without all weapon tuning fits people will have to figure out other modules into head slots - wanted variety? There You go.
Also since overall DPS will lower significantly now - maybe tanking rather than ehp will become viable?

But back to topic this is a very valid concern.
Lasers get +30% acc, EM get +50% and firearms +100%. Were lasers considered underpowered so the change touched them the least?
Those acc consumption changes are too steep. Single weapon tuning brings around 16.21% DPS increase each. Becouse the 7.5% RoF increase it was already more consuming on acc the more tunings were installed.
Since the acc penalty is cumulative it gets ridiculous very quick. Alot of times one have to consider accumulator efficiency - to spread it among both tank and DPS. Lets make a quick gauss gun comparison of putting more tunings on:
DPS -   ACC 
100  -   100
116  -   150
135  -   225
157  -   337.5
182  -   506.3
It is basically inefficient to put any magnometic weapon tunings on.

The accumulator consumption increase should be same for all weapon types. Firearms might need an increase in acc usage for that. Acc efficiency shouldn't be suffering as much.

Lets consider a scenario where all weapons get +20% acc per tuning:
100 - 100
116 - 120
135 - 144
157 - 172.8
182 - 207.36
This look closer even tho true ACC-DMG ratio would still be more affected. RoF will increase consumption of ACC as well so with +7.5% at the 4th tuner we would get 33.5 increase in damage per shot with over double acc cost - Personally I would still consider it a bad deal - but more bareable.

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

repair tanking isn't more vailid either.

armor repair always had a bad accumulator/hitpoint heal efficiency, especially with medium repair modules.
now with the penalty, they are even worse.
yes, in pvp you get hit with less DPS... but in PVE nothing has changed on that side.
just that you now need even more accumulator to repair between combat.

oh, and using any tuner below t4 seems a VERY bad idea...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

offtopic eve talk moved to offtopic forums section

Forum Rule #5
Pyramid quoting, quoting excessive amounts of text or quoting without any senseful reply is forbidden. Only quote that is necessary to show what your reply refers to.

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Annihilator wrote:

repair tanking isn't more vailid either.

armor repair always had a bad accumulator/hitpoint heal efficiency, especially with medium repair modules.
now with the penalty, they are even worse.
yes, in pvp you get hit with less DPS... but in PVE nothing has changed on that side.
just that you now need even more accumulator to repair between combat.

oh, and using any tuner below t4 seems a VERY bad idea...

Now that we no longer have as much damage against pve, i think Time to Kill rats should be addressed.  Beacuse shooting an observer with one tuning is cancer.

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Observer are meant to be THE hardest NPCs to kill.

TBH, the only thing about them i dislike, is their extreme-range demob. With everything else can be dealt with.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Annihilator wrote:

Observer are meant to be THE hardest NPCs to kill.

TBH, the only thing about them i dislike, is their extreme-range demob. With everything else can be dealt with.

My issue with observers is the loot they drop.. Why not have a random chance to drop a T3 mod that has the same stats as T4 but half the weight ? You could call it T3.5 or something..

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Blocker wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

Observer are meant to be THE hardest NPCs to kill.

TBH, the only thing about them i dislike, is their extreme-range demob. With everything else can be dealt with.

My issue with observers is the loot they drop.. Why not have a random chance to drop a T3 mod that has the same stats as T4 but half the weight ? You could call it T3.5 or something..

+1 awesome idea

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Blocker wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

Observer are meant to be THE hardest NPCs to kill.

TBH, the only thing about them i dislike, is their extreme-range demob. With everything else can be dealt with.

My issue with observers is the loot they drop.. Why not have a random chance to drop a T3 mod that has the same stats as T4 but half the weight ? You could call it T3.5 or something..


well, its the issue with all bots...  they drop mostly just t1 crap, and lots of it.
Zoom needs to implement the random attribute gear and cut down the droprate of crap loot that player are supposed to build.

just like the tuner rebalance, thats on the todo-list. and probably same thing - it will take 3 years to get down on the list to that point.

the most iminent issue right now, is that extreme low BONUS on Tuners for the extreme penalty. especially because the PENALYT is independant of the tier.
noone in the right mind, will ever use a t2 tuning anymore...


and this topic, is primarily about the medium machineguns AP consumption per shot. its twice as big as it should. even if zoom reduces it to "1 AP" per shot, MGs would not be able to combine with more tunings then other weapons, but at least the same number.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Annihilator wrote:


and this topic, is primarily about the medium machineguns AP consumption per shot. its twice as big as it should. even if zoom reduces it to "1 AP" per shot, MGs would not be able to combine with more tunings then other weapons, but at least the same number.

yeah, yeah, yeah, we all know about the bad imbalance of firearms tunings. We all worked it out pretty damn quickly and you confirmed it in this thread. Now the fix for it can go to the end of the "list" and we can all wait another 3 years for the correction. It just means no one realistically fits any more than one damage tuner on any fit, especially firearm fits. If the goal for the devs was to be rid of max tuner fits, then objective achieved, even if it was poorly thought out and implemented.

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

one thing that the patch did do was to place green bots on a level playing field with the others.  The problem is no one uses green anymore sad, well i should say missile bots anymore.

20 (edited by Altera 2016-11-15 18:36:59)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Rovoc wrote:

The problem is no one uses green anymore

hello?  Been running green through this whole green nerf period (and taking crap for it wink )!

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

better delete game forever, get balance here with Zoom not realy. a not want talk about balance, i want play 1-2h after job... sad i spend time for this...s...t

Just @ Game

22 (edited by Inda 2016-11-16 00:42:27)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

After many reads, I just getting to that point I want to revert back this stuff atm.

I just feel to much changes without a really good outcome (well just the greens has some love).

I SAY NO for this patch! If we agree on that we would ask the devs, revert that.

WHY and WHY all the time they just dont think a bit more, and wait a bit??? What was the BIG issue about the tunings after 3 years, its ok there is a problem about tunings but not that much, just make a PLUSZ 10 % on tuning accu consumption. Why that much? And leave the Industrials alone.



Personally:

I cant PVE as efficeintly as before
I cant make Harvesting missions as effective as before (dont even talk about Noralgis farming.)

I need to change and test all my fittings on our PVP machines, and that is because of no real good changes just for the greens.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

Personally:

I cant PVE as efficeintly as before
I cant make Harvesting missions as effective as before (dont even talk about Noralgis farming.)

I need to change and test all my fittings on our PVP machines, and that is because of no real good changes just for the greens.



sounds like a you problem if you cant figure out how to change fits.

We all thought the patch was going to suck at first but after a week most of us like the changes

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

@Inda have you tested pve fits?  i can farm just as efficiently as i did before.  You're just not thinking outside the box.  Yes you do have to change your fit you just can't go out with your old fits.  If you're complaining about Nora and harvesting missions you're view is small.  Find something that works instead of complaining about it.  Stop waiting for other people to do the work for you... wait that's Ethoes.  i would argue and say missions are more lucrative now than they ever have been.  I just wish we could do them in squads effectively.

25 (edited by Rugerx 2016-11-16 02:10:56)

Re: Medium Firearm AP consumption (or any other weapon)

BadAss wrote:

better delete game forever, get balance here with Zoom not realy. a not want talk about balance, i want play 1-2h after job... sad i spend time for this...s...t



thought it was just a game??? good bye anyways

we can haz ur stuff?