126 (edited by Khader Khan 2014-12-18 17:36:30)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Before patch very few people piloted Arbalests to the extent I did. Inda was probably the other person. I knew my Bot inside and out had about 3 fits I ran none of them were as OP as the new patch made the Arb. Arb is now Flavor of the Month for sure. 2 of my fits centered on masker Mk2 Arb with
Head SlotsT4 masker, Demob, Amp, and a T1 Co-processer
Mid slots  T4 guns x 5
Low slots T4 rep, evasive, frame, a resist of choice or a 2 rep
This was my go to fit it was not op, it was fragilwhen facing other assaults that fit all tunnings (things that could over dps the reps per sec., it was demobable, once i got maxed skills it was cap stable running one repper or all guns but both together was suicide. It was the HIT and RUN king. The only bot that really caused me problems were strong shield tanked castels and wasps or all tunings and resists baphos.

This new version of the Arb is nice (OP out the ying yang) but i would gladly trade it back to old balance.

Edit was meant to post with LOBO yarr

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127

Re: Robot balancing discussion

I was always partial to the medium aux medium rep Arbalast

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128 (edited by Zortarg 2014-12-18 18:24:28)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

since frame is %based while
plates are absolute values
and because both should not be changed for different reasons...

not allowing plates and frames simultaniously seams the most logic way to go for me. either or. or non of both.

i also agree that racial bots shoud be more specialized.
but i dont want to go back to the old ways. there should be a reasonable possibility to fit missile launches on the slots that are there. on the arbalest, baphomet, kain, artemis. just if you want and have both weapon skill sets. besides they are not misc slots like on the tyrannos where they can be used for other good stuff...

Re: Robot balancing discussion

-allow weapons to be shot through a shield?

Would help tyro and gropho.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

backed by numbers:
please increase missile damage by 12.5%, or lower the cycletime of all launcher by 11%

this will bring small missile launcher closer to the other small weapons, while retaining lowest DPS at T4

medium laser currently have ~40% more DPS then Medium Missiles, so 12.5% wouldn't retain the gap, but would mean that a 1:1 fight between a seth and gropho the green bot would actually have its racial advantage.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

Let's talk gargoyle and termis for a second.

We got some pretty nifty bonuses to energy transfer and armor repair amount. 

Why aren't they being used in pvp?

I can only speculate here.  There's really no defense to either one of the bots.  In the past CPU/reactor plaqued these bots.   We got a sensor bonus, which is great mitagates needing additional ECCMs.  But I still have no tank on this thing.

If I shield tank either one of these bots.  I have a couple options:

1 light weight frame
1 medium shield
2 rechargers

1 sensor amp
1 ECCM
Here's were its optional
1 armor repair tuning
1 masker(eats CPU)
1 shield hardener.

4 arms med remote rep/transfer.

You can armor tank but you run into energy problems because of slow recharge and during a fight your dealing with alpha strikes.

Suggest:  shield absorption bonus(this would help Indys too!!!).
And some more CPU/reactor.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

Phantomburn wrote:

Why aren't they being used in pvp?

with your own words from the ictus topic:
because riveler and symbiont are superiour and cheap to use.

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133

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Annihilator wrote:
Phantomburn wrote:

Why aren't they being used in pvp?

with your own words from the ictus topic:
because riveler and symbiont are superiour and cheap to use.

They don't get used in PvP because there's no speed penalty. Heavies are as fast as what they rep.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, so as we have found, the prototype variants of armor plates are close to 50% lighter than the normal variants for some reason. Normally the prototype versions are supposed to be only 25% lighter (though this might be revised as well, as that seems a bit much too). This will be fixed in the next patch.

Can you tell, what the problem in denying to equip armor plates and light weight frames at same time (and nothing more)?
I think there will be less chances to make another mistakes and disbalance.

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135 (edited by Syndic 2014-12-20 19:33:44)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Because having 12k armor, being demob-immune and running at 90-100 kph is ridiculously broken.

Effect of plates should be drastically increased so that if you want that buffer tank you're actually slowed down.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

Idea:

Remove the termis bonus to armor repair.

Take the termis right click -> copy -> rename -[insert Hungarian name]

[Hungarian Name]

REMOVE mining bonuses and all things to do with mining.

ADD

Armor repair bonus AND remote armor repair + optimal range bonus to repair modules
Small resist bonus and sensor strength bonus.

High slots: Sensor amp, 2 rep tuners, eccm
Mids: 4 remote armor repair
Lows: Lwf, plate, med armor rep, universal plate OR recharger.

Increase its cap stability to run 2 remote repairs without capping out.

-  We need an energy transfer tuner.

Then do a gargoyle viarant but with energy transfers.

Lows: LWF, Medium Shield, 2 rechargers

Then you'll see dedicated logi in fleets and add content.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

Syndic wrote:

Because having 12k armor, being demob-immune and running at 90-100 kph is ridiculously broken.

Effect of plates should be drastically increased so that if you want that buffer tank you're actually slowed down.

I suspect the problem in language barrier here.

I'm asking to add the restriction to equip the LWF if you equipped armor plates. Same with plates - it should be impossible to equip armor plates if you already have LWF equipped on your bot.

By my opinion this is the only one change that required to balance everything about demob and speed ratio problems.

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138

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Broken ideas to fix working mechanics before a broken patch

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139

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Hunter wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Because having 12k armor, being demob-immune and running at 90-100 kph is ridiculously broken.

Effect of plates should be drastically increased so that if you want that buffer tank you're actually slowed down.

I suspect the problem in language barrier here.

I'm asking to add the restriction to equip the LWF if you equipped armor plates. Same with plates - it should be impossible to equip armor plates if you already have LWF equipped on your bot.

By my opinion this is the only one change that required to balance everything about demob and speed ratio problems.

Hunter is right also make assaults and lights only able to equip small things only exception is the med weapons.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

To come back to the waspish with numbers.

if Zoom's default Arbalest is (everything T4, compositte core slugs)
1x SA + 2x em-tuner; 5x light EM gun, 1x small Repair + 1x Thermal + 1x Uni + 1x LWF
124 kph, ~2500 eHP, 211 optimal range with 515 Burst Damage and 154 DPS

then the "default" Waspish fit looks like this
1x SA + 3x missile tuner; 5x light Missile launcher; 1x small shield + 1x small accu + 1x LWF
119 kph, ~2160 eSP + ~1600 eHP, 270 optimal range with 462 Burst Damage and 134 DPS

just looking at those numbers, its a rather even fight, due to waspish's shield tank and its range advantage, but the Arbalest can easily regenerate 17 eHP/s while closing in, and the waspish has to time its shields to benefit from its ~17 eSP/s.
But now the gamebreaker - the small em guns got 96m falloff, which means at 270m they still got ~60% of their DPS,
EM-Guns can significantly increase their DPS with Magnedart ammo (25% extra) sacrificing a mere 40m optimal range,
Missiles can increase their DPS with smite ammo by less then 12.5%

and now if you say, Arbalest is supposed to win this fight... a bapho would win the fight with the same fit too.
and after all, its all for naught, because those are not PvP fits at all...

If only the waspish' only advantage would be usable around tree's  - aka the ballistic curve beeing MUCH steeper, and missiles base-damage 12.5 % higher big_smile

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141

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Also a gank Gropho mk2 does 50% less damage than a gank Seth mk2.

Amarr victor.

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

Ewar OP!

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

Ok, i see 6 pages in the topic and no any kind of pool the problems. That means there are no big problems with robot balance OR developers have no time to read, analyze and aggregate.

What for need a pool? - For now i need read all posts to make sure the problem not sounded yet.

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Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
Burial wrote:

Why shouldn't a bot be demob immune/close to demob immune?

demob immunity is fine but it must come at a cost. You cant have tank AND be immune to a demob, its just to stupidly powerful.

You make no sense.  Would you really expect a raft to slow a Cruise ship?  I don't.  Maybe be unlike EvE and their imba warp scramblers.  If you want to demob a heavy Mech you need the appropriate sized demob.  No light should be able to demob a Mech.  Period. 

So, you would need a Mech equipped with a Mech sized demob in order to demob a Mech and smaller ... it would be about size.  Lights tackling a Mech is just stupid and logically foolish.

-Ensi

145

Re: Robot balancing discussion

They got rid of the mech size demobilization bonuses though...

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Re: Robot balancing discussion

Hunter wrote:

Ok, i see 6 pages in the topic and no any kind of pool the problems. That means there are no big problems with robot balance OR developers have no time to read, analyze and aggregate.

What for need a pool? - For now i need read all posts to make sure the problem not sounded yet.


You mean, we need a poll?

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147

Re: Robot balancing discussion

My take on hit dispersion and surface size.

Assumptions:
- 2m hit dispersion weapoin will hit 1m surface size target 50% of time
- same DPS weapon with double optimal range is twice as effective.
- falloff = 50% of optimal range value.

No plates (no changes to hit surface of target) and no weapon stabilisers we currently have:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … sp=sharing

My proposition:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … sp=sharing

Numbers are a bit more balanced now. Missiles are not very accurate here for their special evasive properties. There is also a side note on demob but it is just a loose uncalculated concept for now.

148

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Celebro wrote:
Hunter wrote:

Ok, i see 6 pages in the topic and no any kind of pool the problems. That means there are no big problems with robot balance OR developers have no time to read, analyze and aggregate.

What for need a pool? - For now i need read all posts to make sure the problem not sounded yet.


You mean, we need a poll?

No, he needs a pool smile

Basically, he means that all the problems should be summarized somewhere, not just spreaded all over the thread.

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