1 (edited by BeastmodeGuNs 2016-08-06 08:33:48)

Topic: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

(Disclaimer: This is a bit of a long text wall and this could trigger someone's OCD but however... I think the ideas I lay here are something that should be read and discussed as if the community and the devs to a certain extent agree or can come to an agreement on these ideas/concepts or some other similiar form, these could end up being implemented into the game as the Syndicate ewar robots. Empis and Callisto!)

*ZOOM PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ*

Now that the first few syndicate robots have been released, I imagine at least 1 ewar and the hybrid harvester/miner assault will be out next. With this I would like to just try and maybe theorycraft on potential ideas for bonuses and main ewar type of Empis and Callisto, the new syndicate ewar robots that will be coming out overtime.

Before I get into the ideas, I would like to say the following:
As we know from past and present experience and knowledge, yellow bots focus on Suppressors, blue bots on ECM, and greens on Neutralizers and Drainers. Both versions of the Zenith and the troiar MK2 wielded the themselves heavily as powerful tacklers as well with range bonuses to electronic warfare that gave their roles diversity to their main roll plus tackling, at least until the re-balancing patch of 2014 hit.

After that, ewar roles lost a little bit of diversity and the loss of optimal ranges blurred out which bots made the best tacklers which would become split between the Troiar, castel, and cameleon mainly, none of which really possessed any skills to really bring out the demob. Aside from that there is also the interference emitter which is severely underused. This is where my ideas come in.

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The concept of the smaller Syndicate bots having bonuses to surface hit size essentially making them smaller and harder to hit. As well as naturally superior detection and masking. Could quite possibly allow the Syndicate ewar bots(light ewar at least) to fill the empty dedicated niche of demobbing. (both S and L and Interference intermission as well.)

NOTE: the percentages are on a per level basis.

Empis bonuses/role/fit slot count idea:
- Demobilizer accumulator usage |3%|Basic robotics|
- Demobilizer optimal range ------|2%|Basic robotics|
- Demobilizer strength ------------|1%|Basic robotics|
- Surface hit size ----------------|-0.10|Basic robotics|
- Signal masking ----------------|2+|Electronic Warfare specialist|
- Firearms cycle time -----------|1%|Syndicate combat robot control|

Empis slots:
Head: 3
body: default
Leg: 3

Reasoning for idea/concept:
- With the naturally improved masking and detection plus the syndicate robot exclusive bonus of smaller surface hit size plus the masking bonus global to all light ewars. It could make for a sneaky little tackler that would be difficult especially for mechs and heavies to eliminate quickly and effectively which may be useful for giving allies time to move in and making larger bots use increased caution on the PvP field. Ideally it is more suited as a support tackler that is more efficent at tackling larger bots. Aside from the S-Demob, the strength bonus would also give an L-Demob a small amount more power against non-plated targets.

- The demobilizer strength bonus would not be too powerful but upgraded it would make the bot more effective in dealing with mechs running plate and frame fits and could be a sort of counter to the demobilizer resistance bonus on mechs.

- The idea behind having both 3 head slots and 3 leg slots comes with the fact that unlike the Troiar it does not have a particular use for its weapon and misc slots aside from the use of its factional firearm weaponry. the bot is a light ewar that is suited for getting near the enemy and demobilizing them unlike the cameleon and intakt that stay at range and use their ewar. Considering that the syndicate bots are the slowest and have lowest HP, giving the empis 3 head slots and 3 leg slots could give it a some fitting diversity for the role it is meant for as dedicated demober.

Callisto bonuses/role/fit slot count idea:
- Demobilizer accumulator usage |3%|Advanced robotics|
- Demobilizer optimal range ------|3%|Advanced robotics|
- Demobilizer strength ------------|1%|Advanced robotics|
- Interference emitter accumulator usage|3%|Advanced robotics|
- Interference emitter module optimal range|3%|Advanced robotics|
- Interference emitter strength ------|2%|Advanced robotics|
- Signal Masking ----------------------|+2|Electronic warfare specialist|
- Firearms cycle time ---------------- |1%|Syndicate robot control|

Callisto slots:
Head: 5
body: Default
legs: 3

Reasoning for idea/concept:
- Due to the default size of mechs altogether the signature Surface Hit size bonus that is exclusive to the syndicate, would still not make a noticable difference when applied to mechs or heavies.(all ewar mechs have default surface hitsize of 7.00m) To give a little edge to the Callisto the demobilizer range could be made a little higher then that of its Empis counterpart to give it that small amount of extra reach. The same concept for the demob strength as the Empis in the demob strength bonus stands with the Callisto.

- As it stands currently there are no dedicated bots for interference emission and only one extension that increases it's interference strength a little. Alongside the demob bonuses, giving it unique bonuses for interference emission would give it a little of the diversity between its ewar options like the Zenith had prior to the rebalancing patch of 2014 with its general range bonus to ewar. Except focused into two particular types of ewar, being demobilizers and interference emitters, leading to balance with a sense of diversity making the Callisto a fair all around ewar mech with respective roles for small gang and larger group fights.

- As for the head and leg slot layout, it is basically the same as the zenith and the vagabond. But since the types of ewar it would be focused in are more diverse in range and capability then ECMs and suppressors, it would make the player consider how they want to use their head slots to make their capabilities work and give them that sense of diversity in how they can fit to do their respective roles and role those slots to their style. Rather then just throwing on say... one sensor amp, 3 ECMs, and a sensor suppressor and just rolling that as the only meta for an ewar bot. Of course with this, leg slots only need to be 3 as the ewar for this bot is focused in the head like the Zenith and Vagabond rather then the Ictus.

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So yeah, here are the suggestions, and sorry for the text wall, please do make civil discussion and feel free to tweak the bonuses and slots I put down as they are a basis for how I feel the robots could roll while not being that unbalanced and having their own part in the ewar meta at the sametime. Be sure to put your opinion and +1 if you like the idea, at the very least the demob role would be a good way to go and this is the foundation and what I would like to see implemented best case scenario!

-BeastmodeGuNs

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

It is a good idea. Bonuses can always improve if they are not true.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Still think that we also need a dedicated Nexus bot

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Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Line wrote:

Still think that we also need a dedicated Nexus bot

That could be put into the heavy mech as the term "support" is not defined quite yet for it, so maybe it could get some nexus love there, or give some nexus love to currently existing indies. idk.

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

+1, looks good.

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Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

+1 basically

give 2% bonus to the Demob Strength that is not really powerful so need a bit more bonus!

(Well as I can see, more Syn- tec robot can come later, so NEXUS robot would come also I hope)

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Good ideas, +1.

I speak broken English.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Those ideas are good, but atm I see demob still the most useful ewar in PvP. So before strengthen that field, we should talk about the other ewar/enwar bots.

The small size together with good masking would make this very handy to sneak in enemy bases.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

I absolutely agree that a mix of demobaliser strength and range is what is needed. Its ht eonly ewar that has no love and would make these useful. It would also fit nicely along their slow speed and signal detection / masking bonus'

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Goffer wrote:

Those ideas are good, but atm I see demob still the most useful ewar in PvP. So before strengthen that field, we should talk about the other ewar/enwar bots.

The small size together with good masking would make this very handy to sneak in enemy bases.

Well they did say they would address other bots of the same class as the new ones they are releasing at the time, so hopefully the Ictus will get some much needed love. But not too much. Just the right amount.

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

it would be nice to see more specialisation for this class in to shields. Perhaps an energy transfer bonus too?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

imho every bot in the game needs to have shields fit by default,
because at this point, resists and evasion are just unimportant factors, only implemented to make it more confusing...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

If heavies had an evasion penalty it might matter more

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Normally I'm a nice furry, lovable fuzzball and this instance is no exception.

What we see here is not good.  Its not the effort, its not the bonus, over all a good try.  Its the complete misfiring of what Zoom wants these bots to become.  These are suppose to be the quirky, weird ex-girlfriends that you use everyone once and awhile for fun.  Not diehard PVP bots.  Unless He, or the DEV team take a step back and see a small rework would do for all of the factions, nothing good will change.

Here is what I'm talking about.

Beast hit upon what these bots should of been, this faction should get Interference SPECIALIZATION.  Just as blue gets ECM, Red supression, green EnWar.  This is logical, it makes sense gives the player a understanding of what is what, what to expect, as well as Open options in the market place.  No special requirements are needed, find a CT, get the minerals, go build, and kill.  With these new bots the way to get them makes sense, but ONLY for strange and specialized bots.  EI - Generic.

Wait Wait, how do we do this then, what do we do.  Lets look at Mk1, and Mk2 bots currently.  We have the same stats and rolls for both of them, with very minor differences (Mass is higher on Mk2, better Fitting.)  So do the same thing with these bots.  Make them a true new faction with all that entails, move them over to be buildable.  The ewar has Interference Spec, DPS of firearms, and Shielded. (Red, Blue - Armor, Green, Yellow - Shielded)

Ok, now WHY do we do it this way.  If you make these new bots so desirable in PVP (Speced for Demob, Ultra fast speed, ect) you make PVP have a higher barrier of entry.  When you run a gang of a large size you specialize certain team members to meet a goal.  Making one bot that isnt like the others to be obtained in a special way that means so much for the battlefield is not smart game design.  This is hard to explain up to the point when you see it. 

TDRL - Zooms game design does not mesh with what your bonus are currently, he wants even more quirkiness.  I completely disagree with the current game design direction.  Its ok on the short term (Oh look new stuff), but will quikly die off due to a incomplete picture.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

i don't think there is anything wrong with its bonus. I think its drawbacks make it weak however and an extra low slot would fix that.

The trouble is its probably relatively balanced vs mk1 assaults but it will never fight mk1 assaults. If the intent was to never make mk2 syndicate bots then it needs a buff to compete.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Jita wrote:

i don't think there is anything wrong with its bonus. I think its drawbacks make it weak however and an extra low slot would fix that.

The trouble is its probably relatively balanced vs mk1 assaults but it will never fight mk1 assaults. If the intent was to never make mk2 syndicate bots then it needs a buff to compete.

No, if you want mk2 balance you make them mk2.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Perpetuum wrote:
Jita wrote:

i don't think there is anything wrong with its bonus. I think its drawbacks make it weak however and an extra low slot would fix that.

The trouble is its probably relatively balanced vs mk1 assaults but it will never fight mk1 assaults. If the intent was to never make mk2 syndicate bots then it needs a buff to compete.

No, if you want mk2 balance you make them mk2.

Well that is Zoom's ultimate decision and so far he has basically given the current Syndicate bots the DPS of an MK2, the evasive bonus, and superior detection/masking that beats MK2 if not land it on par while it has the weakness of speed and lower HP that makes it weaker and slower then MK1s.

Really it is better then MK1 and just below MK2 the way they are making these.

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

DPS no, Evasive bonus is next to useless in V mk1 or mk2 assault or otherwise.

It fits like a Mk1.  Walks, Talks, and dies like a mk1.  Its really not better then a Mk1.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

They were never meant to be better than Mk1, the intention was to be on par with Mk1. (At least those that have a counterpart in other factions.) If you only drive Mk2, they are not for you.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

Then you made them to be useless.

Zoom can you develop for the game that actually is,not the game you imagine it should be in your head. Nobody drives mk1 assaults in PvP, it just doesn't happen. Why would you develop something to not have it used? Your just throwing away really good content.

I just don't get why you would release 11 bots that are going to suck compared with mk2. Did you take a vow of poverty? Do you like developing and releasing content that's great but really bad due to balance?

Currently the following are fantastic coding and content rendered useless by awful balancing:

Tap beacons
Squad missions
Artifacting
Gamma ownership
Black heavies
T4+
Requisition slips

Do you want syndicate robots adding to that list? Wake up! They need to be AS GOOD as mk2, it would be better if they were BETTER. everyone would want and use them, people would be interested in the game because of this and population rises.

How many people are going to return for an assault / mech / heavy that's considerably worse than what people use as standard.

Jesus if ypu actually balanced the above list properly do you know how much more fun the game would be? <wipes foam from mouth>

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

If they were meant to go against Mk2s, they would be harder to obtain, more expensive, and would require more extensions, making them out of reach for newbies. Why would we do that?

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

DEV Zoom wrote:

If they were meant to go against Mk2s, they would be harder to obtain, more expensive, and would require more extensions, making them out of reach for newbies. Why would we do that?

Because they would get used? Newbies are not as poor as you think, nor are they devoid of skill points any more. What a mk2 equivalent race available from the syndicate shop would do is enable solo and small gang players who don't have the industrial backbone a way of competing.

By all means add a mk2 version if you want to cater to both markets but making them worse than a mk1 assault is not going to make them desirable.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

DEV Zoom wrote:

If they were meant to go against Mk2s, they would be harder to obtain, more expensive, and would require more extensions, making them out of reach for newbies. Why would we do that?

Where are the newbies? There are the same 50 veterans playing this game for 2 years.
Make the game interesting for veterans, raise the population to a decent level again and if population is high enough, then newbies may stay and play the game for more than a week.

What the game needs is population more than anything else.

You should make them bot OP, so at least we can have a bit of fun with them.
You can always consider a nerf later on. If you release them as good or less than actual mk1, they will be ignored and your content is useless.

I speak broken English.

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

What Leary said. Its a tried and tested method used in Eve, bring back the oldies with shinies and they make the game interesting for the newbies.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Ideas for Syndicate ewar bot bonuses/roles/fitting slot count

mk1 is actually just a crafting component for mk2's

thats the reality... like t1-t3 modules.

just had this talk with another perp player last week - MK2's are simply to powerfull compared to MK1's.
make them only cost the RARE materials + mk1 and BUFF MK1's slot count to what the MK2s have
(MK2 still has better CPU/Reactor, additional bonuses)

eventually CHANGE body slots on MK2s to allow different roles then mk1.

for example:
allow Missiles in Mesmers MK2's belly slot (like Artemis)
allow Artemis MK2 to fit 3 Missiles (the other shoulder)
allow medium weapons on Intact and Cammy MK2 in that medium top slot.
...

things like that...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear