Topic: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Extensions Recycling and Refining are pretty all compassing extensions covering a very wide range of civilian activities. They are also comparatively low complexity. For example factory skills get multiple extensions just for speed etc.

An idea to improve on the situation: have each commodity or commodity group have a separate extension affecting its refining rate. So you woudl have things like "Refining: Titanium", "Refining: Plasteosine" or "Refining: Nuimqul commodity". This would make it more meaningful how the ore lines go in slightly different places when compared to commodity lines. This would make it interesting on whether you keep your options open to mine and refine whatever is the cheapest at the time or do you "division of labour" it and stick to spesific one be a market leader/competent in it and buy the others.

The situation could be similar than it is now in ore collection where going blanketing all types to lvl 10 would be kinda intensive ep use but it is quite easy to pciak couple to go to a high level.

However with the current on/off system you either refine or you don't. Getting refining for one commodity is as expensive as getting it for all or them.

The is also one reason why the existence of the whole refining step has been called into question from time to time. Before people decide what modules they woudl like to have in ore form instead of in commodity form. I think the main reason is that refinign is instant and infinite capacity. that is I can have gigaUs of liquits and HDT and turn them ALL, INSTANTLY into cryoperine. Now the factory process doesn't suffer from this as its a temporally extended process. I can kinda guess on reasons why that system is not copied verbatim to refining. That is a new player would be disappointed they they have to wait yet another wait before they can get a payoff and that the process is too abstract in going from "thingy called X" into "thingy called Y" taht it can seem like not an essential action.

I would say that make the refining process differetn fromt he factory process int he same way that perpetuum ep system is different from eves skillpoint system. That is an agent or a agent-terminal pair generates over time "refinement" that can be in an instant be used to turn ores into commodities. But the difference to how it now works is that when working with large amount one could run out of "refinement", if you would mine and refine in the go ore as you collect it in argano or sequer loads it would be equally "instant". But if you would do it in scarab loads you would have to break it into multiple pieces or make it in a temporally extended process.

Now you could then add extensions for: how big of a pool of "refinement" you can accumulate before it slows/stops accumulating. The rate of regeneration for "refinement". And possibly even how much a (spesific) commodity eats this "refinement" resource. This would be comparable to the numerous "factory: time efficiency" extensions.

With these it could be an interesting problem on whether you refine quickly and inefficiently or refine into stock in order to not get hit by refinement need bottlenecks. It would also decouple the prices of ores from the commodities more strongly while making them influence one another. It would allow for there to be more niches fillable quicker by relative noobs and less a simple "I have more step aside" single scalar thing.

It does add complexity and it calls for (partial) redesign of somewaht core economic mechanics. But I do think this do not have a high chance ot make unforeseen negative effects nor would they be that tricky to implement.

Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Tl;dr ?

my vote:
Refining should be split into the two actual processes it currently does.

  • "smelting":

    seperating the raw materials from useless byproducts of the ore.

    I would even say there should be a way to do this step into something you can do deployed in a module of your robot.
    (a relative easy thing to implement actually).
    real-life example: harvesting grain - the machine used does both, the collecting, and the first step of "threshing"

    Refining extensions could then affect efficiency and cycletime of the module.

  • "refining/reprocessing":

    the step where you combine several materials into alloys and composittes which are then used in actual production. I would make this process taking time too, with extensions to improve.

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Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

My vote is leave it the *** a lone.

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Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Ville wrote:

My vote is leave it the *** a lone.

+1

Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

the only thing i'd like to see with extensions is it split it to factional ep with this free ep business adding to a specific faction. That way afk miners would just get industrial ep and you cant afk two 1.5m alts per combat account in a month.

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Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Changing it so it devalues vet stocks would be the only functional way, if you make it harder that just means corps like mine with G's of commodities just got even more power.

Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Annihilator wrote:

my vote:
Refining should be split into the two actual processes it currently does.

  • "smelting":

    seperating the raw materials from useless byproducts of the ore.

    I would even say there should be a way to do this step into something you can do deployed in a module of your robot.
    (a relative easy thing to implement actually).
    real-life example: harvesting grain - the machine used does both, the collecting, and the first step of "threshing"

    Refining extensions could then affect efficiency and cycletime of the module.

  • "refining/reprocessing":

    the step where you combine several materials into alloys and composittes which are then used in actual production. I would make this process taking time too, with extensions to improve.

I see where Rolafen is going with this.
Right now we have 99% of the players doing nothing but AFK mining in scarabs and sequers all day now.
Yes new people see them doing something, a small step up from having 1 player in general chat when they start out.

I think we have an opportunity here.
Lets make modules called smelters or new bots that have this skill.

Then we can have the actual refining process take place in the terminals over time. 
This time could be reduced with extensions.

This would break refine into 3 skills, not an infinite amount.
Smelting ores.
Threshing plants.
Reduce time extension.

All would be 1 to 10 so now we have skills for refine that actually make more sense and players could specialize in.


I think repair and recycle should be left alone as it stands now.
Maybe add a time component to them??
Damage 1-10% short time to repair.
Damage 11-20% longer time to repair?
Damage 21-30% longer time still.

I like Jita idea where the bonus ep you get goes into a pool to be spent in that category only.

Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Once again: just forbid mining modules on hauler bots, that's it.

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Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Or just make the EP gain depend on # of mining modules, preferably along with a nerf so an afk hauler makes like 1/5 of todays EP.

Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Line wrote:

Once again: just forbid mining modules on hauler bots, that's it.

One syntec miner module on a riveler will still last all night

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

Jita wrote:
Line wrote:

Once again: just forbid mining modules on hauler bots, that's it.

One syntec miner module on a riveler will still last all night

Syntec Arkhe-only, mechs/hmechs only med modules then?

Well, it's not like solve-them-all solution, but still something. At least, common liquid ores rices might grow-up a little

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Re: more extensions: split core industrial extensions via resource lines

tl dr being have "refining:titanium","refining:plasteosine",etc instead of just "refinining". Or have "refining:nuimqol commodities". and have "intensive refining" be an extension that does a thing. Althought this topic being kind of if you can't bother the read why woudl I assume what you write has thought behind it?

I don't really get on what is the point of the suggestion of having smelting and refining be different processes. So that afk miners don't mine but smelt instead?

I don't think there is any significant trade on commodities as of now, nor really any theorethial reason why there should be. This would just split what the current price for ores is between ores and commodities with predicted price movement from ores into commodities.

Or if this suggestion is bad then it could be argued that all the "liquitz exploitation" and "mining: titanium" extensions should all just be collapsed into one "mining" extension. How is mining different to refining that it gets to be treated in a different way?

If suddenly all the vet corps can't refine like they used to be and they can't tap on the free ep to get them like the newbies can, this makes them rely on their existing stock. I don't see that it would be so surely a veteran powering change. And stock being finite will eventually run out while refining skills are useful in the future.

Other are also arguing that afk mining ep grab needs nerfing. I have a problem of excess ep without mining myself. And I find myself not choosing extensions that I want to use but taking extensions that are the least useless to me. That is has become a process of filling out the gaps rather than striving for something desired. I am arguing that now that EP gets used more its weaknesses start to glare more as parts other than the low branches of the ep tree are actually used.