1 (edited by Neoxx 2011-01-07 05:28:06)

Topic: Increase Assault Surface Size

The surface size of assaults needs to be raised in order to give mechs more effectiveness vs assaults.  I would recommend 5m, but even 4.5m would be a good improvement.

Right now, Mechs are basically crap against anything smaller than a mech.  Sure, the smaller bots need to not just be *** by everything bigger, but there has to be some "rock paper scissors" between each bot type.

Mechs should be able to kill Assaults fairly well, but not Ewar lights.

Assaults can still stand up against a mech decently because it is getting full damage, but its main purpose is to kill other bots and especially ewar lights (think waspish 2 volleys an intakt).

Ewars are there to take out nearly any target out of the fight, barring troiars focusing on draining bots of accumulator.

Heavy mechs can eat mechs for lunch, but have very poor sensor strength so bots can ewar them very effectively.


Missile mechs used to be the bot killers, but since the medium missile explosion size got a  massive increase they're not much more effective than any other mech.  It was nice having specific roles for missile mechs, but you just wanted to make them more alike in that respect I guess.

Hopefully when we finally get destroyers (the next class above mechs that use 'large' modules) we will see the true purpose of bots come to fruition.  With a likely hit dispersion of 20m+, small bots will be able to swarm around them in relative safety.


Current bot surface sizes:
e-war light: 2.75m
light: 3m
assault: 4m
(big f*cking no-mans-land)
e-war mech: 7m
mech: 8m
heavy mech: 10m

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

There are a few little things that could be done. At the moment assaults are easily replaced by mechs for PVP (Not PVE).
E-war light does a very large amount of DPS when swarmed making them very powerful for large number groups.
Light robots are slow and while having only a little less DPS than an assault there is no real need to use them when you can use an assault. The cost effective argument is invalid due to everything being so easy and cheap to make.

The Game

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

I don't agree, a well equiped mech with around the same skill set will kill easily any assault. Better hp, more slots, much greater range, less dps on assaults tough. I don't want to see the light bots becoming only a prerequisite for getting mechs, they should stay usefull even in the mech era

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

This game isnt about 1v1.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

are u mad?

you can oneshot assaults with your mechs "if your a skilled PvP pilot"

did you do something wrong when you respecced your account after 45 days to mechs?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Just throwing in some thoughts:
- Why not reduce the hit dispersion of medium weapons? If attacked by a light ew gang, a mech pilot should have the chance to take down 1-3 of them before being locked down. This would greatly reduce the cost-effectiveness of light ew and give mech ew some meaning.
- Why not give medium weapons some minimum range? Light ew bots could try to run into the safe zone next to the mech, but then have to run away again to avoid (the soon to be added) collateral damage. I really wonder why bigger weapons don't have some minimum range.

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Currently Mechs do less DPS (On average) against assaults when compared to assaults against assaults.

There is a hidden bonus (Unless now removed) where if your hit dispersion is lower than the targets surface size you do BONUS DAMAGE. Whoever balanced that is was an idiot..

If they removed that a lot less Q.Q would happen. If it's already removed, thank good. It was in beta and it was annoying as hell.

The Game

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Neoxx wrote:

The surface size of assaults needs to be raised in order to give mechs more effectiveness vs assaults.  I would recommend 5m, but even 4.5m would be a good improvement.

Right now, Mechs are basically crap against anything smaller than a mech.  Sure, the smaller bots need to not just be *** by everything bigger, but there has to be some "rock paper scissors" between each bot type.

Mechs should be able to kill Assaults fairly well, but not Ewar lights.

Assaults can still stand up against a mech decently because it is getting full damage, but its main purpose is to kill other bots and especially ewar lights (think waspish 2 volleys an intakt).

Ewars are there to take out nearly any target out of the fight, barring troiars focusing on draining bots of accumulator.

...

Heavy mechs can eat mechs for lunch, but have very poor sensor strength so bots can ewar them very effectively.
Current bot surface sizes:
e-war light: 2.75m
light: 3m
assault: 4m
(big f*cking no-mans-land)
e-war mech: 7m
mech: 8m
heavy mech: 10m

/signed

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

I think it's just too big of a defensive bonus for being small. You need 20 seismics to do full damage to an assault with medium missiles. Yes I know you can't take seismics that high. Maybe add some module that helps targetting small bots? Right now a ewar with evasion module + nexus evasion module can ignore a mech. It's only doing 10% damage to it? That seems too low. Almost no point to getting into a mech right now, except to fight other mechs.

10 (edited by Annihilator 2011-01-09 13:54:19)

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Lege wrote:

Almost no point to getting into a mech right now, except to fight other mechs.

working as intended. Dont blame the balancing that was in place for ages now, that you have resetted and specced for mechs while they dont have a use.

medium missiles got nerfed a bit to much, but that was necessary, as they did not work as intended (killing everything from more then 500m away with no LoS issues in max 2 salvos... with the low damage ammo)

like i wrote earlier, a skilled gauss cannon fitted Kain can one-shot a waspish, while having the speed and resist advantage. A Artemis has enough range and armor to kill an Arbalest, and the Tyrannos - sorry, never tried against Baphometh, but two showts from a medium neut will harm the bapho much more then the tyrannos (ok, forget that, the EM-Dispersion and a small injector cancel it out)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Annihilator wrote:
Lege wrote:

Almost no point to getting into a mech right now, except to fight other mechs.

working as intended. Dont blame the balancing that was in place for ages now, that you have resetted and specced for mechs while they dont have a use.

medium missiles got nerfed a bit to much, but that was necessary, as they did not work as intended (killing everything from more then 500m away with no LoS issues in max 2 salvos... with the low damage ammo)

like i wrote earlier, a skilled gauss cannon fitted Kain can one-shot a waspish, while having the speed and resist advantage. A Artemis has enough range and armor to kill an Arbalest, and the Tyrannos - sorry, never tried against Baphometh, but two showts from a medium neut will harm the bapho much more then the tyrannos (ok, forget that, the EM-Dispersion and a small injector cancel it out)

It can kill a waspish in 1 shot if it gets lucky with the dice roll.  Skill?  lol no.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Now since they rerolled directly for mechs, they want mechs to be more effective against assaults ? lol

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Skills meaning extensions. A well designed character in a mech is clearly better than a similarly designed character in an assault, assuming both have a decent amount of EP.

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Lyghtcrye wrote:

Skills meaning extensions. A well designed character in a mech is clearly better than a similarly designed character in an assault, assuming both have a decent amount of EP.

Skills meaning actual skills. Knowhow of the game.   A 'skilled' assault pilot can easily kill a mech pilot if they know what they are doing.  Maybe in a few months when people have much better mech skills it wont be the same, but someone spec'd into assaults is extremely dangerous to a lower skilled mech pilot.

And you cant say "similar" at all in this case.  If they have similar skills, the mech pilot will have more EP.  If they have the same EP the assault will have much higher levels since they didnt have to climb the ladder to get to any of their relevant skills.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Neoxx wrote:

someone spec'd into assaults is extremely dangerous to a lower skilled mech pilot.


And why is that a bad thing? We should compare equally skilled pilots. The truth is that mechs are faster than assaults and have better range. Less dps but more hp and better customization options.

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Seridur wrote:
Neoxx wrote:

someone spec'd into assaults is extremely dangerous to a lower skilled mech pilot.


And why is that a bad thing? We should compare equally skilled pilots. The truth is that mechs are faster than assaults and have better range. Less dps but more hp and better customization options.

if they have the same EP the assault pilot will always have better skills than the mech.  the mech has to "waste" some into prerequisite skills.  At later stages (level 8+) it will be negligible but theres still a difference.

I'm not saying an assault should be cannon fodder to a mech, but right now the cost of a mech is no where near justified as compared to the assault.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

but it is a trade off: those who specc into assault will have their ep "wasted" when they too go for mechs. And because the skilled mech will be stronger than a skilled assault eventually all go for mechs. Especially if we make assaults even worse.

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Seridur wrote:

but it is a trade off: those who specc into assault will have their ep "wasted" when they too go for mechs. And because the skilled mech will be stronger than a skilled assault eventually all go for mechs. Especially if we make assaults even worse.

thats so true. It would be either heavy mech or small ewar - anything else is just a stepping stone.
atm, everything has a use, except small combat bots, they are just zerg-units.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

I believe the point Neoxx is trying to make is that the cost to value ratio is really screwed up.

Example, a light bot compared to an assault.

(Based on older prices, but the ratio is still correct)

Light bot value = 800k NIC
Assault bot value = 1.2 mil NIC

Does this seem a fair cost ratio? I'd say yes.

Now, let's compare the problem bots.

Assault bot value = 1.2 mil
Mech = 7mil

Does that even seem close? God no, the mech would be valued at around 2-3mil if it were to be balanced and that's a generous value at that.

Even when you compare mech to heavy mech the values add up in the difference. The issue is that the cost/value ratio is scewed to hell and back when you compare assaults to mechs. The guys in the assaults are damn effective against the group of mechs, and they are risking nearly 1/7 as much. Will the mechs win in a even engagement? Yes, most likely, but they really lose when you add up the mechs that were lost in terms of NIC.

TLDR

It's stupid the way it is, and either medium weapons need overall lower dispersion (I don't recommend it as it screws with ewar/light balance) Or more intelligently, raise assaults surface size to 5m. Done, problem solved, crisis averted, game better balanced, damsel saved, dragon slain, happily ever after achived. Wait, what was I talking about again?

Oldest player still in the game. Perpetuum for life.
Original Founder of M2S, may it rest in peace. sad
"Hungarian Math" is defined by the dictionary as "Just like normal math, but where each equation ends by dividing the sum by Potato."
-Shoutout to "Stranger Danger" for the "potato" comment.

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

The cost to value ratio presumes that pilot availability is a limiting factor. If you have 10 pilots, would you rather have them in 10 mechs or 10 assaults (you probably actually want a mix of types, including things that are not mechs or assaults but for the sake of argument, assume those were the choices you had). Clearly the 10 mechs, despite their drawbacks, should easily dispatch 10 assaults (again assuming an appropriate amount of EP, even as low as 60k for every pilot involved). Yes the mechs cost far more nic, but with a limited amount of pilots, who cares.

21

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Blackomen wrote:

I believe the point Neoxx is trying to make is that the cost to value ratio is really screwed up.

Example, a light bot compared to an assault.

(Based on older prices, but the ratio is still correct)

Light bot value = 800k NIC
Assault bot value = 1.2 mil NIC

Does this seem a fair cost ratio? I'd say yes.

Now, let's compare the problem bots.

Assault bot value = 1.2 mil
Mech = 7mil

Does that even seem close? God no, the mech would be valued at around 2-3mil if it were to be balanced and that's a generous value at that.

mech value is around 3 million anyway
just the marketprices didnt drop that far already
but even now u can buy some below 4 mill

so dont tell 7 mill fairy tales........

<<< REAL POWER CAN NOT BE GIVEN, IT MUST BE TAKEN >>>

Kyr - Perpetuum Online
Helios Norlund - Darkfall Online

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

This whole post is based around 'bang for your buck' but unfortunately the prices are based on an immature economy. Eventually, the price of these mechs will decrease to their perceived worth. With them still being the 'new big toy' people are paying a premium.

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

GLiMPSE wrote:

This whole post is based around 'bang for your buck' but unfortunately the prices are based on an immature economy.


Not really.  Neoxx's post was about relative power and killability, not NIC cost.

Maybe a silly idea, but is there room in the game for another tier in-between mech and assult, like a light mech?  Thoughts?

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Mechs are the "light bot" of the medium size.  Heavy mechs are the "assault robot" of the medium size.  Adding a smaller mech really doesnt make sense.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Increase Assault Surface Size

Marus wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:

This whole post is based around 'bang for your buck' but unfortunately the prices are based on an immature economy.


Not really.  Neoxx's post was about relative power and killability, not NIC cost.

But it is. 5 mechs will beat 5 assaults...

Anything outside of 1v1 these comparisons fall apart and the bigger badder mechs will have statistical superiority.

If you're trying to make it about relative power it has to be relative to something other then 1 for 1 number of bots... which is money or 'cost' but the cost is inflated because the market hasn't matured for the mechs and heavies.