1 (edited by Mroq 2016-03-10 23:21:29)

Topic: Wait to progress

Time based character progression - that sounds great, and for the most part - it is... or is it?

Let me tell You a story...

     Sometime around 2012 I found a very cool game called Perpetuum Online. Started playing it and it was great. I am an Eve veteran and this game seemed to have all the pros of it and on top of that gave me the WSAD controls making it more action oriented and therefore making player skills having higher impact on the combat outcome. My Yagel was kicking metal behind of them low lvl combat mission bots. Then a few days later came the arbalest upgrade - awesome! Now I could easily win the fights Yagel was struggling with. But then combat missions became harder and I did not have the EP to get into anything stronger. So I started mining. "If I have to wait then I will make mountains of NIC to afford all the robots I want" I thought. 20 hours later I started thinking how can I increase my income. Well, I have to wait... Ok then, I figured, I'm gonna make alts and mine with more robots - that will surely increase the income. And increase the income it did! After a few days I could afford all the robots I wanted, but I could not even pilot them. It was time for some maths - to get into Kain I need that many EP and that means waiting for this many days. And so I waited... As the morning sun dawned on the calculated day I jumped to the game and with shaking hands activated my long awaited mech. "Now! I shall take on all the evils that have bested me before!!! Mwahahah..wait...I need advanced gun skills too?" ok... ok... its just 2 days... Once I had that came the basic support skills missing - accumulator, fitting, speed (was a thing back then). I think I played for a month or so without switching to another game. Every day waiting for that "cruicial" upgrade, playing for a bit before realising that I'm missing something important. I wanted to fill all my Kains slots but didnt want to spend ep on missile skills I would eventually not use on Mesmer... I gotten a great Idea then - if I take a break and play something else for some time I will come back to a bunch of EP I can spend on all that needed stuff. And so I did, bought the next month subscription and went off to play something else. After a month I decided not to pay for a game I would not actively play.
    Some years later perpetuum comes to steam and gets rid of monthly subscription forever for the price of 3 months. Thats cool, I dont have to pay to wait now! Bought the game, linked my account to steam and got back to playing. Now I had all that EP from that second month I bought before. I finally could get into Mesmer! It is a cool robot, not wanting me to spend ep on some missile skills to fill all the slots. It wasn't any on the market at that time tho - but I dont have to wait for that! Joined a corporation, made friends, made myself usefull, made some NIC (becouse I left my previous assets in a corporation that did not exist anymore), ground standing with the nuimqol and at some point it came to a market! But the price... Ok I can do that, or better yet - buy and sell ICE! Instant cash, get into it and bask in the glory of the 6 mounted medium guns. Now anyone who tried piloting a mesmer with lvl5 accumulator skills will know what happened next. Yup... You kind of need those for it. Oh and the fitting skills if you want to fill all of them slots - especially if You get a hold on to t4 modules. You know what that means right? More waiting... And so I did. Over a year passed with me logging on every 2-3 days to keep the EP going. Got the accumulator skills, got enough fitting skills to fit all t4 on it. But all my friends weren't playing anymore. And I myself was into other stuff too. Nothing to fear then! I dragged friends from that other games into perpetuum, bought them the game even. "Holy cow that is a nice robot You're having! When will I get one?" they asked... Take a guess what they did after I answered them? Correct! They decided to log in every 3 days untill they get that nice shiny heavy mech. So I decided to go all out fot the mk2 version and even more fitting skills to fit everything I want on it when they along with me come back. And I would probably be still doing that and not actually play the game. But then came the DLCs. 7 MONTHS worth of waiting instantly! And booster time on top, and some more presents! It wasn't december but felt like christmas anyway. I got all I wanted! Finally, I could say I have the skills I wanted to have! In that one particular robot there is barely anything more I can do to get better! Now I can play the game knowing someone else will not win in pvp only becouse they waited longer than me. They win becouse I got little knowledge of the pvp now, but that is something I can improve by PLAYING THE GAME! Even one of those who gotten the game gifted by me came back, and bought the DLC too and is now in mesmer mk2 as well. Not as good extentions as me tho as I waited far longer than him - but decent enough and there are 2 of us now! Now I can do stuff I wanted to and in the meantime train up additional things. Why did it had to take 4 YEARS for me to get to that?

Storytime over.

Conclusions:
-No option for players to get EP or a character with them without waiting.
-ICE gives you the option to get EP at some faster rate but does not remove the waiting factor.
-ICE allows you to get the EP without the need to login every 3 days essentially encouraging passiveness.

Facts:
-The EP gain for purchasing ICE equals to 21600 (equivalent of 15 days of waiting for free)
-ICE can be traded on the ingame market.
-Buying stuff that can be obtained in game is called "pay to progress faster" and not "pay to win".
-Players leave the game tired of waiting.

Proposition:
-Increase the EP gain on ICE
-Provide a way of getting EP instantly (much less than the DLC worth - 10 EP per Credit maybe?)

Why:
-New players willing to play competitively have options to negate waiting advantage:
       a) Taking active part in the game by earning NIC for ICE
       b) Supporting the game and players from point A by buying the ICE with cash (betting more ICE will get bought)
-It will expose the weaklings who will cry over loosing their spreadsheet advantage

Do I want it for myself? No, I have done my fair share of waiting.

Re: Wait to progress

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … le/page/2/

This may be a good read based on what your asking. Page 2.

3 (edited by Inda 2016-03-11 07:40:44)

Re: Wait to progress

I propoesed that idea before, but now I think more accurate:

Add +EP when you actively play, for kills for mined materials so on.

I am ok if you got EP with more quicker way when you buy ICE, but dont let them take it at 1 day, divide by 3 or 4 pls. so not 20 k EP at 1 day, they will use the EP wrong, adn cry later.

PS: good to read btw

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

4 (edited by Mroq 2016-03-11 08:09:28)

Re: Wait to progress

The DLC have put new light on the ICE, which is a form of subscription. Anyone with a calculator can tell that its value does not even compare to that of DLC. I am going to expand on the proposition of changes and my thoughts on em(it took me 4 hours writing that first post and ended up going to sleep much later than I was supposed to and so I feel it is not finished).

1. Change the EP boost into an instant one.
This is actually the laziest of propositions which will generate a P2W discussion among the community. It will allow new player to come into the game, put a certain ammount of cash on the table and be granted the requirements. It would solve the problem only in the short run. That person would not have anything more to work towards for and would notice others reaching same goal over time "for free". So most likely only core and most immediate needs would be bought this way. Veterans might not feel like using this option at all.

2. Increase the EP gain on boost.
A better option. This does not have the potential to backlash as the proposition no.1 as even those who paid up ahead would still have to wait for their EP. This would increase the demand on ICE and shorten the time wait and catching up to others. As much as it would help greatly it would not solve the waiting problem entirely - only ease it (which is good).

3. EP items
I think this one would make new players and veterans alike happy(not all of them - its never all of them...).
Imagine an item, consuming which gives you instant EP, requires you to use credits to activate and farming/grinding in the first place to obtain it.
Lets expand the idea now.

We can categorize players into basic 5 cattegories (feel free to add more):
a)Miners/harvesters
b)Production
c)Artifact hunters
d)PvE
e)PvP

A. There is this special kind of resource, a shiny one recycling which gives the same ammount regardles of extensions. So this might be something similar - every now and then a miner would get that special item.
B. Using up CT to 0p gets that item or a % chance of getting it.
C. This one is no brainer - but it could have more chance to drop in those artifacts that people generally only do to "clear".
D. Another easy one. Random chance to get it in the loot.
E. One word - SAP

Now for the mathematics and the actual ammounts example.
A typical player plays 4 hours a day.
A non boosted account recieves 1440 EP daily
1440 divided by 4 = 360
360 unlockable EP in items per hour
Now this calculation makes sense if those items are not tradeable in game.
If it is otherwise then majority of players not needing it will flood the market. But everyone would want a bite of the idea so it can be made much more scarse and therefore expensive/in demand.
This might create situation from point 1 when someone comes into game, buys alot of ICE, gets the items of the market and gets to a veteran level straight off - but veterans would get a bite of it (market sale income and more acces to ICE for ingame currency).

Re: Wait to progress

It is pay to win but honestly who gives a damn. If we are ever in the position where new pay to win players can topple the 3 or 4 major players that have owned the game since release I'll be dropping to my knees in thanks.

I would just make ICE give you an ep boost for a month or 50% of that boost immediately.

I'm also in agreement with fixing ICE ep boost - that fits with an eventual ftp model

I'm all for 5 times as powerful

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Wait to progress

It is generally considered for something to be pay to win if you can get an advantage otherwise not obtainable thru in game means.
Better sparks = P2W (even if its something ridiculous as 1% its still considered as such)
EP = most definitely not P2W
NIC = most definitely not P2W

Whats the difference if you get killed by player with maxed out skills after years of gathering them and a player with maxed out skills becouse he paid cash for it?
At first instance you get enraged becouse he has the unfair (to you) spreadsheet advantage.
At second instance you get enraged becouse he has the unfair (to you) spreadsheet advantage.
But at both instances you can eventually achieve that level without paying a dime for it.

Re: Wait to progress

It's not perfect, but even Wait 2 Win is better than Grind 2 Win.
By the way, what about larger bots in the future? They gonna wait to pilot them right away?

Re: Wait to progress

Well You still have the choice to either wait or grind to speed it up.
Larger bots in the future? I would rather expect a retextured ones with some kind of mk3 and unique abilities. And requiring more EP to push the completion goal that so many already achieved further away.
The second question tho is fairly simple, since You can accumulate EP you can have a stock ready for when it is needed for the new stuff - so still those who buy EP can't get advantage over You if prepared accordingly.

Re: Wait to progress

Mroq wrote:

Well You still have the choice to either wait or grind to speed it up.
Larger bots in the future? I would rather expect a retextured ones with some kind of mk3 and unique abilities. And requiring more EP to push the completion goal that so many already achieved further away.
The second question tho is fairly simple, since You can accumulate EP you can have a stock ready for when it is needed for the new stuff - so still those who buy EP can't get advantage over You if prepared accordingly.

It's not really about someone's advantage.
It's about the game mature philosophy, where you can choose what to do, when and how much you want. Instead of being online and do things to progress faster like some teenager with all the time in the world.

But i understand that waiting is sometimes very frustrating and may cause people to quit because they've tired of waiting. But active training is not cool at all. Need a better option.

Actually, i don't see a big problem, because there is DLC that can be bought, and player can pilot heavy mech shortly after start, skipping all light and assault bots.

My solution for those who want more EP:
"3rd DLC", for credits, not money. Quite expensive, 500k EP.
It's the first part. Can be obtained through online time without spending money.
The second part is that "DLC" can be bought partially. For example, 10k EP for 200 credits. Up to maximum 500k for account.
It's the second part. Players can grind quite a lot of EP doing things they've choosed. It's affordable, because players can get additional EP every day instead of saving for one big purchase. By the way, i've heard that there's mini-ICE planned, which gives 200 credits, which will be very handy in this case.
At the same time, it's not breaking anything, because for not the grindy, mature person it's just a 3rd DLC pack.

500k may be too much. if so, then 300k.

Re: Wait to progress

First, this doesn't belong in General Chat it belongs in Feature discussions and Requests where it can be more easily, and rightfully, ignored.

You readily admit that the current system kept you logging in for a year for "free" EP which is exactly what it was designed to do.

There is already a *** ton of ICE out there. I don't have any but I know that some people have hundreds. Increasing their efficacy is *** and does not benefit either the game nor AC in any way.

The account upgrades are borderline P2W (especially the sparks), but because they're limited to one time per account purchases it's not that bad and it gives newbies like Mroq the ability to not have to wait 3 months up front - it's exactly what it was designed and intended for - while also giving enough credits to fix mistakes or buy more premium EP time. It was the first thing I did when I came back to the game was purchased all the upgrades on all of my accounts, not all of which have years worth of stockpiled EP.

It's also a fallacy that this is the reason the player base is small is just the waiting. There needs to be a laser focus on PvE - especially SOLO - because it's carebears growing hair on their balls that usually brings people to Beta/Gamma. I personally like the low system requirements - however I do think at the very least AC could provide a high-res texture pack with a config toggle because a lot of people won't play games that aren't shiny - especially if they bought the game based on the trailer...

TL;DR - All of the OPs ideas are *** and ignore the root problems with population - namely lack of PvE *** to do (by actual lack of *** and mechanics that favor locking people out of things with the senseless removal of other existing things) and lack of advertising. AC can't rely solely on Steam and Facebook.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Wait to progress

Crepitus wrote:

First, this doesn't belong in General Chat it belongs in Feature discussions and Requests where it can be more easily, and rightfully, ignored.

You readily admit that the current system kept you logging in for a year for "free" EP which is exactly what it was designed to do.

There is already a *** ton of ICE out there. I don't have any but I know that some people have hundreds. Increasing their efficacy is *** and does not benefit either the game nor AC in any way.

The account upgrades are borderline P2W (especially the sparks), but because they're limited to one time per account purchases it's not that bad and it gives newbies like Mroq the ability to not have to wait 3 months up front - it's exactly what it was designed and intended for - while also giving enough credits to fix mistakes or buy more premium EP time. It was the first thing I did when I came back to the game was purchased all the upgrades on all of my accounts, not all of which have years worth of stockpiled EP.

It's also a fallacy that this is the reason the player base is small is just the waiting. There needs to be a laser focus on PvE - especially SOLO - because it's carebears growing hair on their balls that usually brings people to Beta/Gamma. I personally like the low system requirements - however I do think at the very least AC could provide a high-res texture pack with a config toggle because a lot of people won't play games that aren't shiny - especially if they bought the game based on the trailer...

TL;DR - All of the OPs ideas are *** and ignore the root problems with population - namely lack of PvE *** to do (by actual lack of *** and mechanics that favor locking people out of things with the senseless removal of other existing things) and lack of advertising. AC can't rely solely on Steam and Facebook.

So true...

Re: Wait to progress

Your description of experience is that you want to progress in wealth power and not actually play the game. That is all has to be for progress. This is not neccesarily how sandbox games need to be played. Also your story would want some paragraph breaks for readability. In particular if there is a lower level bot available to boom stuff why the unavailability of the big bot makes you rather wait for the big than use the little on e in the mean while? It hink game design wise the important thing might be how long does the satisfaction of achieving a middle rank makes you actually use and enjoy the goodies achieved before you start to wait for the next goodie level.

One of the very potentially valuable ideas in your posts to me strikes to be having a cap on how much ep can be extracted from play-activity dependence in a day. This is the main factor that increases its admissibility.

I do not think that making the EP items tradeable would destroy them. I view it more that if it survives trading its proof of the rigiourness of the idea.

What people usually dislike about Grind To Win is that if they ever do not put the daily effort or don't feel like playing they will fall behind and mega-grinders can make quantumn leaps in blink of an eye. However if you put a time-limit cap on what grinding can win for you this addresses this complaint quite nicely. If you grind exactly at the cap (say 100 ep per day) you are guaranteed not to fall behind no matter what. If you grind in excess of that you are in effect buying vacation time. If you make 300 "grind points" per day for every day you play you can afford to take 2 vacation days without risking of falling behind. There is already this kind of structure in that loggin in for 1 day covers your to not log in for 2 days. This is like near the theorethical minimum amount of grind possible. But it maybe highlights the flip side of the design too. Logging in 1000 times in a day does not provide you with additional coverage. In order to qualify those logins must be be dispersed in big real time intervals.

Consider a system of 4 EP tiers instead of the 1 we have now:
tier 0 - log in within 3 days  - 1440 EP
tier 1 - consume tier 1 EP item in 3 days, found in alpha, manufactured from mainly cryoperine, 500 EP
tier 2 - consume tier 2 EP item in 2 days, found in beta, manufactured from mainly epriton, 200 EP
tier 3 - consume tier 3 EP item in 1 days, found in gamma, manufactured from mainly colixium, 100 EP

The difference between a pure waiter only doing tier 0 waiting and one that did all 4 ouf them would be 600 EP about +50% from the baseline. The effect of booster would be to allow the premature consumption of the item to go to queue instead of waste and an additional tier $ - 720 EP income (exactly 50% of tier 0).

In reflection to the fact that you can't put loggins "in store" for tomorrow all the EP items would only live for 1 day. If you wish to trade it its very time sensitive.

Another model would be that each category of activity would generate EP applicaple to that category of skill. So for example first 100 shots fired in a day would generate 1 EP to be used int he category Weapon usage. First 100 resource units processed in industrial process would generate 100 EP spendable in Industry etc. This is similar in FF "slay monsters to get EXP"  put it has a daily cap. Maybe it would be more proper to have small daily activity generate some base level but having bigger activity "beyond the cap" still generate more EP with diminishing returns with a finite limit?

In an effect its a compromise between making the gap between the "haves" and "have nots" smaller while still allowing action to make a difference to "have more". Grind to Win allows the gap to be arbitrarily big. Wait to Win allows the difference to be 0.

Re: Wait to progress

It should be noted that just because one person kept logging in for a year doesn't mean he is wrong, there are thousands of people who didn't. Until we stop thinking in the box of our own experiences and try to think about the people who left and what they wanted we wont progress.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Wait to progress

Jita wrote:

It should be noted that just because one person kept logging in for a year doesn't mean he is wrong, there are thousands of people who didn't. Until we stop thinking in the box of our own experiences and try to think about the people who left and what they wanted we wont progress.

The game is a niche (MMO) of a niche (SPACE/SCIFI) of a niche (FULL LOOT PVP - the smallest). It will never ever have even half of EVE's population - but it doesn't need it to be fun and viable and, frankly, at this juncture, the game couldn't support even doubling the population with the Beta/Gamma 2 TP per NPC faction choke point map layout the way it is; the server/bandwidth load notwithstanding.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Wait to progress

I think that's complete rubbish. The game supported 4 - 6 thousand players on three beta islands with no gamma and three alphas.

The problem is the game has got progressively more hardcore which narrowed its appeal. In addition there were no feature rich patches regularly and no advertising.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Wait to progress

I think that's complete rubbish. The game supported 4 - 6 thousand players on three beta islands with no gamma and three alphas.

The problem is the game has got progressively more hardcore which narrowed its appeal. In addition there were no feature rich patches regularly and no advertising.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Wait to progress

Rolafen Azec wrote:

Consider a system of 4 EP tiers instead of the 1 we have now:
tier 0 - log in within 3 days  - 1440 EP
tier 1 - consume tier 1 EP item in 3 days, found in alpha, manufactured from mainly cryoperine, 500 EP
tier 2 - consume tier 2 EP item in 2 days, found in beta, manufactured from mainly epriton, 200 EP
tier 3 - consume tier 3 EP item in 1 days, found in gamma, manufactured from mainly colixium, 100 EP

The difference between a pure waiter only doing tier 0 waiting and one that did all 4 ouf them would be 600 EP about +50% from the baseline. The effect of booster would be to allow the premature consumption of the item to go to queue instead of waste and an additional tier $ - 720 EP income (exactly 50% of tier 0).

As long as we can buy boosters and have maximum possible EP/day, everything will be fine.
If someone don't mind playing for free but logging in everyday to get the same results as waiter with booster - it's fine.
But only if not more than with booster, or booster+grinding.

It's actually might be a good thing then.
Because some people already doing such insane thing as logging in every day to get free EP.

Re: Wait to progress

Jita wrote:

I think that's complete rubbish. The game supported 4 - 6 thousand players on three beta islands with no gamma and three alphas.

The problem is the game has got progressively more hardcore which narrowed its appeal. In addition there were no feature rich patches regularly and no advertising.

the game was always hardcore.
its just that the vertical progression system made it even more hardcore over time on this limited space that the game provides. starting with the implementation of transition-free travel between carebear-land and hardcore-land (no grey zone inbetween)
back in the days your describing, the whole server had to research stuff, T4 was hardly availiable (especially since you couldn't just research it).
these days, t4 is only matter of grinding the materials, and how many alts you can control at once... even for total new corps.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Wait to progress

Crepitus wrote:

First, this doesn't belong in General Chat it belongs in Feature discussions and Requests where it can be more easily, and rightfully, ignored.

New to forum. Tho this is to put some light on a problem not a proposition as a standalone.

Crepitus wrote:

You readily admit that the current system kept you logging in for a year for "free" EP which is exactly what it was designed to do.

You dont need to appear in game even to get the EP - character choice screen is enough.

Crepitus wrote:

There is already a *** ton of ICE out there. I don't have any but I know that some people have hundreds. Increasing their efficacy is *** and does not benefit either the game nor AC in any way.

[irony] I never been to moon myself but know someone who has and he actually became a president of moonians [/irony ]

Crepitus wrote:

The account upgrades are borderline P2W (especially the sparks), but because they're limited to one time per account purchases it's not that bad and it gives newbies like Mroq the ability to not have to wait 3 months up front - it's exactly what it was designed and intended for - while also giving enough credits to fix mistakes or buy more premium EP time. It was the first thing I did when I came back to the game was purchased all the upgrades on all of my accounts, not all of which have years worth of stockpiled EP.

Do not call me names again.

You readilly admitt now that You came back to game for the DLC. Also I took the time to calculate exactly how many months do DLC skip, you're just throwing numbers out of a sleeve.

Crepitus wrote:

It's also a fallacy that this is the reason the player base is small is just the waiting. There needs to be a laser focus on PvE - especially SOLO - because it's carebears growing hair on their balls that usually brings people to Beta/Gamma. I personally like the low system requirements - however I do think at the very least AC could provide a high-res texture pack with a config toggle because a lot of people won't play games that aren't shiny - especially if they bought the game based on the trailer...

I never said waiting is the sole reason people quit.
And here I was thinking PvE in games as this is only a means to grind assets for PvP. I also have no problem PvEing solo, in such games one needs to figure things out instead of having a pink fairy poitning you to the next theme park based grind spots.

Crepitus wrote:

TL;DR - All of the OPs ideas are *** and ignore the root problems with population - namely lack of PvE *** to do (by actual lack of *** and mechanics that favor locking people out of things with the senseless removal of other existing things) and lack of advertising. AC can't rely solely on Steam and Facebook.

Becouse PvE is the roots and sole reason people come to this game. Well I came for PvP.

Re: Wait to progress

*edit: Offensive. - DEV Zoom

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Wait to progress

This thread is full of tl;dr that my ADD won't let me focus on.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Wait to progress

Its basically someone making honest feedback and someone from PofE insulting them and telling them everything is fine. Its pretty much the same as half the forum.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Wait to progress

And the other half is Jitas posts about how BBEGandT are destroying the game?

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

24 (edited by Mroq 2016-04-12 14:53:18)

Re: Wait to progress

First post in this topic was my impression when I just returned to game. This one is 1 month later after taking rather active part in the world of Nia.

   We all saw the new player spike when the DLC got introduced. Some of them left becouse of the state the market is in. Some left becouse theres not enough PvE content for them. Some left becouse of impossibility to become competitive in PvP.

   For me its a closed circle:
   Most players who wants to PvP thrive on competitiveness of it. 300k EP you get when you start with both DLC is not even enough to max out a single light bot, single role with a single fit. So forget about getting any new hardcore PvPer in perpetuum becouse those dont like being underdogs with no options to change that (other than going AFK for a year or two). They leave.
   Becouse "oldtime" PvP players are supplying themselves new producer players have noone to sell their merchandise to. Some grind missions/kernels to get more options in hope to get customers when a wider variety of products is presented but fail to sell those too. They leave.
   PvE/miners grind for a bit but regardless of the fun involved in it ultimately their raw materials either dont see any buyers or only the underpriced offers that are pretty much scams feeding on newbros (missions pay much better for those even on alpha - and most of them dont even realise that). Those who do sell are presented with an empty market for their hard earned NIC. They leave.

   Lets do everyones favorite thing now - Eve comparison! When new players were unable to do competitive pvp looong time ago they introduced character transfers. Now its skill injectors/extractors which contributed to both new players income and old timers return to get the skills needed. PLEX prices dropped by 20-30% over 2 months! End of comparison.

   Sure, some can pretend everything is fine running around in 2mil+ EP combat pilots kill whoring the newbies. Unfortunately most of forum activity are those few players. Do pretend its the way it is supposed to be - playerbase clearly shows that right?

   After all that time I described in first post I thought I have the skills needed, it turned out false - much much more is required (one simply cant focus on 1 with such low playerbase a wider variety is needed), especially that difference between minimal and maximum skills is far greater than in other games of this type. So what are my options? Build up stuff? I got a few stacks of pretty much everything I need so no need. Wait for more EP? Damn straight! Therefore I will see you guys every 3 days or utill things change o7 (also during downtime wink ).

25 (edited by Jita 2016-04-12 15:52:38)

Re: Wait to progress

First off your numbers are wrong.

For around 250k ep you can get in a mk2 artemis with 7 and 8 gunnery skills, support skills and a standard fit. This will allow you to do missions right up to level 6 and be competitive in PvP. With the same fitting you won’t solo someone with max skills and exactly the same fit but certainly in a gang situation the difference is negligible and you are able at this level of skill to rock paper scissors other peoples fit on a solo level.

From a market perspective Joke ensured that there was a stock of every module from t2 – t4 and every bot and mech in Shinjelar when the population improved. Once mission income got nerfed (twice) I took down a good proportion of that.

The population rose due to two different factors –
1)    A reason to do PvE in a place with PvP
2)    A political climate that gave some pressure but not too much pressure

If either of these didn’t exist the population rise would not have happened. With the right political environment but not incentive to play or be on beta there would have been nothing to do. With the right incentive to live on beta but the wrong political climate you would have the situation you have now with people unable to use Betas without dealing with constant threat of PvP.

For the first time in years we got a good mix of risk vs reward. Now with the mission nerf the reward is much less and with the political climate the risk is a lot more. Hence beta is empty, people don’t play etc etc.

It’s very hard to recreate this in the mechanics at this stage of the game – it requires people in game to change and that’s been proven to not be possible. From a mechanics change perspective you’re looking at some pretty significant alterations that would make the stockpiling of stuff impossible thereby requiring a certain percentage of PvE to do PvP as well as alterations to how station ownership is conducted and the nature of scouting.

I honestly don’t think it’s possible for the devs and even if it was they seem blind to it.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."