Re: Siege modules

DEV Zoom wrote:
Line wrote:

The only reason we don't do it it's because it's long and boring as hell

Isn't that kinda the point though? It takes days or weeks to put up a gamma base, why should you be able to tear it down in 10 minutes?

edit: sorry Ville you wrote kinda the same thing.

But it's not about "let's kill all the gammas in 10 minutes". It's about "let it be more interesting than just terraforming in". While I agree that siege mode heavies can speed the process a little, they also bring more diversity, as you need to find a proper place for your siege bots, guard it well, then have a target painter bot coordinates fire, and so on and so on. As a defender, you have to not just repairing turrents being masked but realy counterattack enemy's position to bring those siege bots down.

We were constantly talking about artillery, walkers, destroyers, aoe weaponry, as we need it much, and there were endless threads about siege warfare - weren't those thingies supposed to hit hard? Why do you think that siege module will be completely different?

Then if you're worrying about gammas so much - balance them appropriately then.

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Re: Siege modules

The primary problem I see with your proposal is this:

Line wrote:
  • increases weapon optimal range in 2 times

  • increases lock range in 2 times

Because that means you can rain down fire pretty much undetected and there is no counter for that, other than some lucky scout squad.

28 (edited by Annihilator 2016-02-29 20:18:52)

Re: Siege modules

DEV Zoom wrote:

The primary problem I see with your proposal is this:

Line wrote:
  • increases weapon optimal range in 2 times

  • increases lock range in 2 times

Because that means you can rain down fire pretty much undetected and there is no counter for that, other than some lucky scout squad.

line must have hacked somehow into my batphone big_smile
actually, -100 masking in siege mode would solve that.

also Ville:

frontal attack =/= what you did at rhaoshan.  you have built a full base there, using lots of terraforming and long range fit seth's under base-masking.
You finished off the base with lots of walls - that for whatever broken game mechanic you could place all around the enemy base to deny access to the owner while you placed lots of bombs short before it came out of Reinforce.
not to forget, using several AFK ictuses to drain the Ethos reactors dry before that.

zortargs base was a backdoor attack too.

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Re: Siege modules

He just straight up lies to try and fool the devs. It works far too often.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Siege modules

Annihilator wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

The primary problem I see with your proposal is this:

Line wrote:
  • increases weapon optimal range in 2 times

  • increases lock range in 2 times

Because that means you can rain down fire pretty much undetected and there is no counter for that, other than some lucky scout squad.

line must have hacked somehow into my batphone big_smile
actually, -100 masking in siege mode would solve that.

also Ville:

frontal attack =/= what you did at rhaoshan.  you have built a full base there, using lots of terraforming and long range fit seth's under base-masking.
You finished off the base with lots of walls - that for whatever broken game mechanic you could place all around the enemy base to deny access to the owner while you placed lots of bombs short before it came out of Reinforce.
not to forget, using several AFK ictuses to drain the Ethos reactors dry before that.

zortargs base was a backdoor attack too.

Base masking means nothing as soon as you attack ONE turret the ENTIRE BASE SHOOTS AT YOU and your follow bots gain agro from repairing you.  The entire purpose of the other base was not to get attacked from the rear while pushing into the front door. 

Regardless there were TWO frontal base assaults and they were successful.  And Zortarg's base only had one access point, the front door.  Which we kicked down.

That's not the point though, Jita's posts clearly point out they want to be able to form up the ENTIRE server to come siege gamma bases.

If there becomes an ability to make it very simple for 40 people to come in and wipe out a gamma base then there will NEVER be any opposing factions in this game that can live and work in a pvp area.

Seige Module + Black bot = outranged turrets = all dead gammas.  Period.  You have black robots now with a 20% optimal range buff.  There's your siege modules.  If you want to kill a base that bad farm them up and roll them out.  Simple as that.

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Re: Siege modules

Get some friends and try to have some fun.

We assaulted plenty of Gammas and it takes time and planning and

Teamwork


so, there is no arty  I win  button


terrible




Line wrote:

Developing artillery, walkers or destroyers will take ages, and we need to somehow assault those lil' Gammas. So here is what can be done as a semi-temporaty solution - a Siege Module

First of, all the proposed changes are mosly based on Nexus mechanics with some little addition. Also, it's more or less similar to dreadnoughts siege mode in that, other game.

So, a siege module requires 5k of racial plasma (depends on bot you're piloting now) per cycle. Each cycle lasts for 5 min. Such a module can only be equipped on Heavy Mech (later only on walker/destroyer) and would take head slot (or even some special siege slot). While active, it gives/takes:

  • reduces max speed to 0

  • increases armor for 25%

  • increases all resists for 15%

  • increases damage in 5 times

  • increases weapon cycle in 10 times

  • increases energy usage by weapons in 2 times (more for Gropho)

  • increases weapon optimal range in 2 times

  • increases hit dispersion / explosion size in 2-3 times to that it's only buildings you're hitting good

  • increases lock range in 2 times

  • increases lock time in 5 times

  • decreases max targets to 3

  • reduces signal detection by 10

Also Siege Module:

  • requires Colixium to build

  • bonuses only affects racial weapons (actually, there can be racial siege modules affecting only racial bots/weapons

  • bonuses are applied on actual values, not base ones

  • each shot consumes 5 ammo/missile at one time

Please, keep political *** out of this thread.

32 (edited by Gunner 2016-02-29 21:01:34)

Re: Siege modules

SUP

Re: Siege modules

Ville wrote:

more lies

I understand why you lie - you think this and every suggestion is designed to maker you weaker and us stronger - but its really counter productive to building a better game. We already said we wouldn't attack your gamma .. can you not just tell the truth so we can have decent game mechanics?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Siege modules

Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

more lies

I understand why you lie - you think this and every suggestion is designed to maker you weaker and us stronger - but its really counter productive to building a better game. We already said we wouldn't attack your gamma .. can you not just tell the truth so we can have decent game mechanics?

You've suggested, that you should be able to run headlong into a gamma base without any proper planning or preparation and be able to reinforce it.  That's why I don't think you understand anything.

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Re: Siege modules

Ville wrote:
Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

more lies

I understand why you lie - you think this and every suggestion is designed to maker you weaker and us stronger - but its really counter productive to building a better game. We already said we wouldn't attack your gamma .. can you not just tell the truth so we can have decent game mechanics?

You've suggested, that you should be able to run headlong into a gamma base without any proper planning or preparation and be able to reinforce it.  That's why I don't think you understand anything.

Please point out where I suggested that. More lies.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

36 (edited by Ville 2016-02-29 21:37:45)

Re: Siege modules

Jita wrote:

Since there has never been a successful frontal assault on a gamma ever why not.

Your suggesting a head on attack here.


Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

It happened to three bases so far in gamma 2.0 and both where successful.  You just don't want to put in the effort needed to do it.

Its not frontal if you use beacons jumps that doesn't exist any more or bombs.

There have been no gun vs gun fights ever.

more suggesting a range fight of turrets.

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Re: Siege modules

Ville wrote:
Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

It happened to three bases so far in gamma 2.0 and both where successful.  You just don't want to put in the effort needed to do it.

Its not frontal if you use beacons jumps that doesn't exist any more or bombs.

There have been no gun vs gun fights ever.

That does not even come close to your previous statement you're drowning here, move along.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Siege modules

Ville wrote:
Jita wrote:

Since there has never been a successful frontal assault on a gamma ever why not.

Your suggesting a head on attack here.


Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

It happened to three bases so far in gamma 2.0 and both where successful.  You just don't want to put in the effort needed to do it.

Its not frontal if you use beacons jumps that doesn't exist any more or bombs.

There have been no gun vs gun fights ever.

more suggesting a range fight of turrets.

But that is exactly what the thread is about. Currently nobody has ever used damage and ewar to take down a gamma base. They always use some bug or bullshit mechanic.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Siege modules

DEV Zoom wrote:

The primary problem I see with your proposal is this:

Line wrote:
  • increases weapon optimal range in 2 times

  • increases lock range in 2 times

Because that means you can rain down fire pretty much undetected and there is no counter for that, other than some lucky scout squad.

A building being attacked by seemingly nothing means that there is a sieger nearby. This lessens the luck needed by the scout party by a lot.

There might be also be the problem that a siege is essentially whether the gamma stand or not. The attacker is bound to lose more material. So if you miss one reinforcement timer it has all been for nothing.

If one could for example setup a building efficency decreaser nearby, the siege could be meanigful on how it effects the usability of the base while it lasts.

Re: Siege modules

Just FYI, Ville. We never forced you to build a gamma base. No matter what.

Back to the topic:

Masking debuff, as Anni proposed, is fine and solves possible problem. Other possible solution can be new type of building (ok that might be longer to implement) that works as one big probe (only one per corp per island allowed) and depending on it's tech level, pings ppl in certain radius - higher the tier, more the radius. So t3 would show any suspitious activity, no matter masking debuff or not.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
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Re: Siege modules

Sounds like some only want to undock bots, move to gamma, and press seige mode and protect from rear.

*Easy Mode*

Only risking bots and cutting the time required to siege gamma is silly and imbalanced.

If it took me 24 hours to construct a gamma base then it should take 36 to 48 hours to assault it down. I had to secure the field first before planting structures and gathered the energy to power the thing in the first place. What the OP is suggesting is the weekend/time zone warriors be able to severely cripple a base in their timezone of opportunity. I want to be able to assault a gamma within the 8 hour window in which I have the numbers advantage while risking the minimal amount of assets to achieve the maximum amount of destruction.

Easy to suggest from those who are risking 0 on gamma.

I will only support this if each of the siege modules cost 10 BILLION nic and 2 MILLION tokens.

Re: Siege modules

Line wrote:

Just FYI, Ville. We never forced you to build a gamma base. No matter what.

That's Irrelevant, your asking for easy mode gamma siege.  Which is clearly an issue.

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43 (edited by Line 2016-03-01 05:36:00)

Re: Siege modules

Ville wrote:
Line wrote:

Just FYI, Ville. We never forced you to build a gamma base. No matter what.

That's Irrelevant, your asking for easy mode gamma siege.  Which is clearly an issue.

No, i'm not. It's different siege, not easy

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Re: Siege modules

Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

It happened to three bases so far in gamma 2.0 and both where successful.  You just don't want to put in the effort needed to do it.

Its not frontal if you use beacons jumps that doesn't exist any more or bombs.

There have been no gun vs gun fights ever.

Think you should have spend some time in those bases to see what had happened. Fight weapon vs weapon is how it should be and how it was done.

Beacon jumps are used by exactly your cooperation for siege in. And you should know this, as JOKE guys were involved.

Re: Siege modules

Line wrote:

Masking debuff, as Anni proposed, is fine and solves possible problem.

No it doesn't solve any problem. Up to now, no alliance is strong enough to guard its base 24/7. with 2000m effective range you could easy destroy one turret after the other. 5 HM would need 2min/turret with this setup. This would open every base within an hour.
The more critical thing is, that this setup would mean you do this with semi afk agents, you place on ground, lok target and forget till target is done.

2 Player could do this siege easly with less than 10 accounts.

Re: Siege modules

Orbital bombardment.

Re: Siege modules

Goffer wrote:
Line wrote:

Masking debuff, as Anni proposed, is fine and solves possible problem.

No it doesn't solve any problem. Up to now, no alliance is strong enough to guard its base 24/7. with 2000m effective range you could easy destroy one turret after the other. 5 HM would need 2min/turret with this setup. This would open every base within an hour.
The more critical thing is, that this setup would mean you do this with semi afk agents, you place on ground, lok target and forget till target is done.

2 Player could do this siege easly with less than 10 accounts.


This is all true. I'm not saying this solution is the right one but previously you would assault a base with terraform walls and slice the pie to shoot. Now that isn't possible.

The fact is that there has never been a successful guns and ewar vs gun turret and ewar turret base attack. Current mechanics require you to do this unless you are using bugs / 'features'

This change tries to address that - and it does need addressing. It is legitimate to say that a big expensive base should require a similar response but there isn't anything other than a forty man heavy fleet that will do it. As that isn't possible now or the foreseeable future adding something comparably powerful and expensive is not a bad idea

Some kind of very expensive siege weapon would do that.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Siege modules

Ville wrote:

Base masking means nothing as soon as you attack ONE turret the ENTIRE BASE SHOOTS AT YOU and your follow bots gain agro from repairing you.  The entire purpose of the other base was not to get attacked from the rear while pushing into the front door.

thats plain wrong.
really,
stop testing turret AI agains your own base... they can all see you to begin with

our RR bots never got even locked while supporting heavies that have been under fire. in the last few gamma sieges i have participated.

if your base was to defend your back, i don't understand what boosted turrets had been doing there to shoot at target-painted RR bots.

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Re: Siege modules

Gekko wrote:

Orbital bombardment.

I want a horns for my Scarabs so I can rename them Narwhal and Unicorn, since we're just wishing for the impossible wink

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Siege modules

Annihilator wrote:
Ville wrote:

Base masking means nothing as soon as you attack ONE turret the ENTIRE BASE SHOOTS AT YOU and your follow bots gain agro from repairing you.  The entire purpose of the other base was not to get attacked from the rear while pushing into the front door.

thats plain wrong.
really,
stop testing turret AI agains your own base... they can all see you to begin with

our RR bots never got even locked while supporting heavies that have been under fire. in the last few gamma sieges i have participated.

if your base was to defend your back, i don't understand what boosted turrets had been doing there to shoot at target-painted RR bots.

You reach a point where your not masked because you have to get that close and you have to push in.  You said it yourself because you watched the Ethos base that our method was painful because we widdled away at each turret.  Regardless Goffer made the point.  Thanks Goffer.

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