Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Jita wrote:

Perhaps you could balance gathering missions and make each mission put the minerals on the market.

This...

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Chemist wrote:

Give us new big ans expensive robots... for nics balance... smile

I think for sure anything in the token shop needs a significant NIC cost.

Error is right in saying Gamma was a good NIC sink. Terraforming was expensive and led to a lot of ice sales to pay for it. This is what is needed.

As a start I suggest adding niani mods and t1 heavies and below NPC sell orders until something more concrete can be found. Right now you can't even buy a termis on the market, it's crazy.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Jita wrote:

Perhaps you could balance gathering missions and make each mission put the minerals on the market.

We probably could. The big question would be, for how much.

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Perhaps you could balance gathering missions and make each mission put the minerals on the market.

We probably could. The big question would be, for how much.

No idea, just make them twice as good and we can feed back after seeing what it does to the market. If there are more minerals available than are getting sold then it's too much :-)

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

syndicate shop is then a token sink... that gives items that cannot be produced, but outclass produced stuff.
so again, a nail in the coffin of player supplied market.

maybe an economist should tell why in perp raws are more worth trading then processed stuff.

tokens are just another raw

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Let me put it to you this way:

A single player can make a billion nic in a day on Beta doing combat missions. I would probably reduce that to somewhere around 70 million an hour.

A single player doing gathering should make and around 120 with all of their produce getting posted by the mission itself to the market for 150 million. The player wouldn't get this money but the NPC sell orders would somewhat cap mineral prices and hopefully stimulateining for money.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Annihilator wrote:

syndicate shop is then a token sink... that gives items that cannot be produced, but outclass produced stuff.
so again, a nail in the coffin of player supplied market.

maybe an economist should tell why in perp raws are more worth trading then processed stuff.

tokens are just another raw

Not necessarily: A Syndicate Shop offer could require token, NIC AND a player produced T4 module as basic item. Let's say we want to "buy" a T4+ med. Repairer: X amount of NIC, y amount of token and a T4 med. Repairer would be needed to fullfil the requirements. We have two currency sinks here and the involvement of player manufacturing. Hell we could even demand a T4p item as basic module ...

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Perhaps you could balance gathering missions and make each mission put the minerals on the market.

We probably could. The big question would be, for how much.

And lets be realistic that content is what, three months? We need action to create NIC sinks now.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

34 (edited by Jasdemi 2016-01-12 19:31:07)

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Perhaps you could balance gathering missions and make each mission put the minerals on the market.

We probably could. The big question would be, for how much.

I like this idea. Maybe connect the prices to average assignment rewards from gathering missions per island.

E.g.
You get 10NIC for each Helioptris doing harvesting assignments on average on Asintec Alpha.
NPCs put all delivered Helioptris on market for 11-12 NIC, so there would be some NIC sink after it's sold to producers.


Also, I've never seen so many people doing pve on beta before. People were whining a lot lately that beta islands are worthless and not worth living on. Right now it is well worth it.

35 (edited by Jita 2016-01-12 19:47:44)

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Jasdemi wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Perhaps you could balance gathering missions and make each mission put the minerals on the market.

We probably could. The big question would be, for how much.

I like this idea. Maybe connect the prices to average assignment rewards from gathering missions per island.

E.g.
You get 10NIC for each Helioptris doing harvesting assignments on average on Asintec Alpha.
NPCs put all delivered Helioptris on market for 11-12 NIC, so there would be some NIC sink after it's sold to producers.


Also, I've never seen so many people doing pve on beta before. People were whining a lot lately that beta islands are worthless and not worth living on. Right now it is well worth it.

Yes i'm not knocking missions, thats not bad at all. The problem is the type of reward.

Imagine if instead of money missions gave away modules, bots, minerals and cortex's. The market would come alive as people tried to swap around for the stuff that they want. Instead you get NIC which just drains the market of the stuff they need.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

I have a better idea:

Prohibit award for mission - NICS.

Battle mission - a reward loot.
Harvest/Mining mission - resources.
Reconnaissance missions - the loot of the artifacts.
Transport / manufacturing - ???

Where to get the money? Plasma only.
Yes, there is a deficit. But the market quickly filled with all the equipment. smile
Over time, the market aligned.

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

After thinking about it my real suggestion to fix this would be:

  • Reduce NIC payouts by 80%

  • Drastically increase the tech in mission NPC loot so that the 80% of NIC lost you now gain in dropped modules

  • Change missions so that you only fight your equivalent racial enemy

  • Make all Mk1 bots, mechs and heavies available by NPC sell order on the market.

This will make NIC valuable again, increase the amount of modules on the market as people try to swap racial goods and provide the bot and mech backbone for people to buy what they need. Once a decent market starts back up i'd get rid of the heavy sell orders but right now we need them.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Jita wrote:

After thinking about it my real suggestion to fix this would be:

  • Reduce NIC payouts by 80%

  • Drastically increase the tech in mission NPC loot so that the 80% of NIC lost you now gain in dropped modules

  • Change missions so that you only fight your equivalent racial enemy

  • Make all Mk1 bots, mechs and heavies available by NPC sell order on the market.

This will make NIC valuable again, increase the amount of modules on the market as people try to swap racial goods and provide the bot and mech backbone for people to buy what they need. Once a decent market starts back up i'd get rid of the heavy sell orders but right now we need them.


I wouldn't like for producers to lose out, but something along these lines to try boost market activity whilst the game grows won't be a bad idea if it's just temporarily.

RIP PERPETUUM

39 (edited by Illiathos 2016-01-12 22:30:10)

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Jita wrote:

After thinking about it my real suggestion to fix this would be:

  • Reduce NIC payouts by 80%

  • Drastically increase the tech in mission NPC loot so that the 80% of NIC lost you now gain in dropped modules

  • Change missions so that you only fight your equivalent racial enemy

  • Make all Mk1 bots, mechs and heavies available by NPC sell order on the market.

This will make NIC valuable again, increase the amount of modules on the market as people try to swap racial goods and provide the bot and mech backbone for people to buy what they need. Once a decent market starts back up i'd get rid of the heavy sell orders but right now we need them.

1) with reduction of NIC payouts, the already big players that have tons of NIC get even more wealthy and pretty much dominate
2) if you get much more dropped modules, then what's the point of production? Why would you even produce stuff if you could just blap some mobs
3) not too relevant to economic crash, but agreed
4) my suggestion is to make no bots available by NPC sell order. That would make more crafters get up and actually produce those bots.

Basically supply and demand here. If we get more NIC/hr with missions, then everything is worth more NIC, you just need time to catch up. The idea of NPCs selling you bots, even ammo, is counterproductive for me. Because if you could buy everything (exaggeration for point) from an NPC, why would you ever get an industrialist to produce stuff for you?

The biggest gripe i personally have with more NIC payout is that everything NPCs sell is just god awful dirt cheap. And there are indies, willing to craft stuff. IF there is a demand. I know my indie with 35 factory slots is itching to produce.

Also, by making more stuff available on the market and with more module drops:
mining and industry become a lot less relevant and the game gets even more themepark - one playstyle to rule them all.

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

does anyone see a reason why we should actualyl get rid of t1-t4, and just have random stat items?
there would be unique items on the market WORTH it.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

There is no real problem with mechanics. Either a player is better off mining titan on their own or its more efficient to buy it from the market. Better mission payout means that buying from market is more often the case. If its it time efficient to mission and buy ores with the rewards those that insist on mining their own titan are just fools. If all miners quit mining to mission grind and buy ores then the efficiency of raw resources by buying would lower.

The market is moving more into actual trade being made and you are complaining about that?

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Jita wrote:

After thinking about it my real suggestion to fix this would be:

  • Change missions so that you only fight your equivalent racial enemy

This is close to impossible because what do you mean by racial enemy? An enemy to the bot you're used to take mission? Or to a bot you're came to spot? And what will prevent you to change the bot accordingly?

Leave as it is or at least make it more island-specific then.

Have a productive day, runner!
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DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
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Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Line wrote:
Jita wrote:

After thinking about it my real suggestion to fix this would be:

  • Change missions so that you only fight your equivalent racial enemy

This is close to impossible because what do you mean by racial enemy? An enemy to the bot you're used to take mission? Or to a bot you're came to spot? And what will prevent you to change the bot accordingly?

Leave as it is or at least make it more island-specific then.

I mean the racial enemy of the island you are on so if you are on green you fight blue etc. I'm assuming we are getting the missions to defend the faction whose station we are in so it would make sense to fight who the racial enemy is.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Jita wrote:
Line wrote:
Jita wrote:

After thinking about it my real suggestion to fix this would be:

  • Change missions so that you only fight your equivalent racial enemy

This is close to impossible because what do you mean by racial enemy? An enemy to the bot you're used to take mission? Or to a bot you're came to spot? And what will prevent you to change the bot accordingly?

Leave as it is or at least make it more island-specific then.

I mean the racial enemy of the island you are on so if you are on green you fight blue etc. I'm assuming we are getting the missions to defend the faction whose station we are in so it would make sense to fight who the racial enemy is.

we get missons for our human NPC corps, to do stuff on those islands.
those islands are racial seeded by nianis that also dont like each others

so... which faction bot would you expect on a green island? mostly green, and sometimes blue or yellow.
exactly how it is...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

having more nic income in the system is basicly not the problem. proces will adjust just as we see atm. even more it hurts the ppl that have nic. because your nic will be worth less... so ppl with all the billions (like me) will have less from their money.

this just is a problem if (just as jita said) there are no nic sinks.
its not important in what you get paid. if nic or items. its only intresting what how much "stuff" you can earn in a given time (1h for example). if you change the payout to items then you will just shift the problem to somewhere else.
yes i think rewards are too high atm from missions. so some ballancing has to be done.

the market is not the problem of the nic. if you earn more nic prices will just be higher so that you still see your time worth as producer.
the emptiness of the market is not a result of higher mission rewards. thats a total different problem. but mostly because of the population issue and that most active playing ppl are vets that dont need the market anyway because they or their organizations are self sufficient (which is ok).

what are direly needed are nic sinks. the market will not help here much since nic will only trade ownership. if you buy a bot from me then i will have the nic intead of you. what is needed are system that remove the nic from the system. blowing up bots also only removes items from the game but no nic.

this way gamma has been a good nic sink... (terraforming charges and so...) so we need more usefull systems that allow player to get rid of their nic (removed from system not just trading to other players).
all suggestions i have seen so far here are not changing that realy...

46 (edited by Gekko 2016-01-13 14:01:49)

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

You can't even  buy a Kain mk1 now. Simillar with other bots.
It't really not the time to think of something permanent or ideal. Do something.

Drop T1-T3 Items in loot and rewards, put bots on market - any price is better than no market.

47 (edited by Jita 2016-01-13 14:08:02)

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Yes until there is a none player based NIC sink there is no reason to sell anything to pay for it. PvP is not a NIC sink, it is a material sink. I can run full production for a small PvP based corp on my own for less than 100m a month. Thats less than an hours missioning a month. The only NIC sinks in relation to that are production, prototype and reverse engineering costs. It should also be noted that you can get most of this back if you own the station.

The reason I suggested the above are:

  • Reduce NIC payouts by 80%

    This self evidently reduces the amount of NIC in the system

  • Drastically increase the tech in mission NPC loot so that the 80% of NIC lost you now gain in dropped modules

    This not only fills the market with modules but provides a NIC sink as you have to repair them. It also encourages station ownership as the recouping of repair costs becomes valuable.

  • Change missions so that you only fight your equivalent racial enemy

    This is just to encourage people to put the mods they get loads of on the market to buy the mods they don't.

  • Make all Mk1 bots, mechs and heavies available by NPC sell order on the market.

    This is another self evident NIC sink

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Some ideas:

1.- Make mission NIC rewards from field terminals in an Outpost Named Sector, be affected depending from the outpost stability.

2.- Make the amount of ore in ore fields and plants fruits generated in an Outpost Named Sector, be affected depending from the outpost stability.

3.- If the amount of harvestable plants in an Outpost Named Sector is 100%, make it 70% and the other 30% to be filled by players with Incubators.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Good discussion.  Some thoughts that may or may not be helpful:

After being away for half a year and hearing about the new mission system, one of the things I was most hoping for after seeing the new production missions was being asked to actually produce real items with real materials and gaining items like fragments, kernals, and possibly cortex as rewards (well maybe not cortex as we need incentive to go to Beta/Gamma more).  I wouldn't even mind having to use my own ore if it meant getting kernals to unlock more research or fragments to crank out more prototypes.  While some NIC as a reward is important to cover the number of NIC sinks there are in the game, the rates that are out there now seemed really high and not needed to be honest.

I am far from an established producer, but I do like to tinker and be able to produce my own stuff even if it isn't the most efficient, and even if it costs more to produce than buy outright.  I would seed the market with more items, but I am limited by fragments the most and don't feel like going out to farm a location doing combat for hours just to make some items even though I have done this many times before.  So, I hoard them for when I really need to make a prototype and to make sure I have enough to help my corp when in need.

I did notice when I started doing combat missions a bit more that I started to compile some fragments and kernals, but it would be nice to give the industrial path player another option to get fragments and kernals at a decent rate.  If the availability was better, perhaps we would have more items being made and put on market for sale.

But yeah, I agree there needs to be some type of NIC sink or adjustment in some way to help with the huge influx from new missions.

Re: The great Perpetuum economic crash

Zoom, add casino for these guys...