Topic: Pay to win?

I'm gonna say Mr. Dev's im not happy about the sparks being available only to someone who purchases them with real money.  2 of the strongest sparks in the game can NOW only be obtained by real money transactions.

Re: Pay to win?

purchace only spark - Solaris ST1 "Yuge" +5% cpu +5% reactor

corresponding NIC unlocked spark - Syn-tec GenII/EvR "Inlflex" +2% cpu +2% reactor

It is kinda straightforward that the "pay only" option is strictly better. The other spark isn't so super straigth forward.

purchace only spark - Matsuda Suchimu Type-S +5% weapon dmg +10 signal masking

best non-purchase weapon damage spark - A-series AC1 "gladius" +2% weapon dmg +1% accu capacity
best non-purchase signal masking spark - Syntec GenII/ScX "Egos" +5 signal masking +5 signal detection

While I don't know whether this is something to complain it does seem that those sparks as sparks exist in a tier of their own.

Re: Pay to win?

I think that if an item can only be obtained with a direct purchase with real money AND it is superior to all others of the same category, a boundary has been crossed.

To answer the question: Yes, this is 'pay to win'. 

I'd urge the devs to provide alternate ways to obtain same sparks with in-game achievements.  Players need personal goals to work towards too, aside from corp stuff, high-end sparks might be a good way to seed some content.  Do be careful it doesn't break some balancing though..

Re: Pay to win?

Stop with the Pay to Win BS. No you dont deserve the best of everything just because you play the game. Pay up or shut up. Yesterday you didnt have access to the sparks. If you dont want to pay for the package guess where you still are?

Re: Pay to win?

5% cpu  and reactor???  Shut up and take my money!!

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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6 (edited by Kayin Prime 2015-12-19 06:48:50)

Re: Pay to win?

I would reinstall the game and pay a subscription fee if I got my own island that I could teraform and build my own *** on. 

Even if it was completely single player and independent from the multiplayer persistent game world.

Just saying.

Edit:  Put a timer with a countdown to the dumbest AI possible - a zerg rush of NPC bots.  Have turrets target NPCs.   Boom. Insta-game! 

-K

Re: Pay to win?

logicalNegation wrote:

... a boundary has been crossed..

I second that.

Please AC change it the way, that these sparks can be purchased with credits. Problem solved.
And think twice - no better thrice - about things like that before you implement them. It's a sensitive matter.

Re: Pay to win?

Pay to Win Alert!

Re: Pay to win?

Its no go, for me!

I would allow to buy the sparks by tokens.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Pay to win?

DEV Zoom wrote:

And as for the sparks, there were some posts about the old sparks being too weak and not influencing much. We'll do some balancing there soon, so the new ones won't stand out this much.

Re: Pay to win?

Jasdemi wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

And as for the sparks, there were some posts about the old sparks being too weak and not influencing much. We'll do some balancing there soon, so the new ones won't stand out this much.

Should not stand out any way.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Pay to win?

I think this is the lastone topic that should be read by DeVs. The project need a money. If someone don't want help the game - he can leave. Stop whining guys.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: Pay to win?

It is pay to win I guess but bottom line is the game is at a point of pay to keep the game alive. Who cares!

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Pay to win?

logicalNegation wrote:

If more income means the game gets more development and players online: then I'll concede my point.

My only suspicion is that once it can be argued that this game is p2w, it will be labeled as such.  Many players avoid this out of some moral imperative in how games make money.  Wasn't the first big surge of players because Eve just announced something that could have been leaning into p2w territory?  Those players left out of protest over just the idea of it, and ironically injected a lot of members into the game here.

My question is: should we expect different results?
If it works, and this game comes to life, and devs can justify investing more hours (and new hires) for the game, I'll get over it.

Re: Pay to win?

Hunter wrote:

I think this is the lastone topic that should be read by DeVs. The project need a money. If someone don't want help the game - he can leave. Stop whining guys.

+1

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Pay to win?

For everyone stating this is pay to win, I want you to think about a couple things.  The first thing I want you to think about is how you win in a sandbox mmo?  What is your definition of winning?  Is it killing a unit in pvp?  is it successfully building a base on gamma?  Is it being a marketer and turning a profit?  Now ask yourself what in the packs means they automatically achieve that goal?  Perpetuum credits?  Well know you still can only buy boasters to the accounts for EP so it wouldn't be that.  Direct EP purchase?  Well just because I use my EP doesn't mean I automatically kill someone.  Or people automatically buy my goods and services off the market Or my base magically appears on a gamma island. 

What I am getting at here is there is no "winning" in a sandbox pvp mmo.  With territorial expansion.  If there's no winning there is no pay to win.  And to be honest, if I compared this to Minecraft.  This would be the equivalent to starting with a wooden pickaxe and adding 300K EP to your account is like giving you an iron pickaxe.  While all us Diamond pickaxe players still run around.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Pay to win?

Ville wrote:

For everyone stating this is pay to win, I want you to think about a couple things.  The first thing I want you to think about is how you win in a sandbox mmo?  What is your definition of winning?  Is it killing a unit in pvp?  is it successfully building a base on gamma?  Is it being a marketer and turning a profit?  Now ask yourself what in the packs means they automatically achieve that goal?  Perpetuum credits?  Well know you still can only buy boasters to the accounts for EP so it wouldn't be that.  Direct EP purchase?  Well just because I use my EP doesn't mean I automatically kill someone.  Or people automatically buy my goods and services off the market Or my base magically appears on a gamma island. 

What I am getting at here is there is no "winning" in a sandbox pvp mmo.  With territorial expansion.  If there's no winning there is no pay to win.  And to be honest, if I compared this to Minecraft.  This would be the equivalent to starting with a wooden pickaxe and adding 300K EP to your account is like giving you an iron pickaxe.  While all us Diamond pickaxe players still run around.

We just dont need that I think, give them something else, maybe mk2 Mech or something.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Pay to win?

logicalNegation wrote:

My only suspicion is that once it can be argued that this game is p2w, it will be labeled as such.  Many players avoid this out of some moral imperative in how games make money.  Wasn't the first big surge of players because Eve just announced something that could have been leaning into p2w territory?  Those players left out of protest over just the idea of it, and ironically injected a lot of members into the game here.

My question is: should we expect different results?
If it works, and this game comes to life, and devs can justify investing more hours (and new hires) for the game, I'll get over it.


Damn i have to second you again. Are you sure you're not an alt of me i'm not aware of wink?
You're absolutely right with the history lesson about EvE refugees. They (me too) were upset about CCPs shameless attempt at money grab with ridiculous expensive monocles (fluff so not much of a problem) and (planned) gold ammo for real money only. That brought roughly ~1000 players to try Perpetuum hoping to find something without p2w. The general chat spiked at 800 or 900 back then - if i remember correctly.

The current 2 sparks are not a serious problem (although the one with 5% damage and 10 masking strength is VERY tasty) but what comes next? Ever seen a game introducing p2w elements and NOT gliding ever deeper into the pit? My concerns go to new players - not vets - since they get the shaft if they're not willing or able to purchase extra kits and upgrades past the base game.
I just hope it pays off - population wise an literally. A vital game is always better than no game at all.

Re: Pay to win?

Guys, you can grab them as DLC content in steam.  I've got a hardon thinking about what the population can be at a price of $9.99!!

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Pay to win?

Azyrex wrote:
Error wrote:
logicalNegation wrote:

My only suspicion is that once it can be argued that this game is p2w, it will be labeled as such.  Many players avoid this out of some moral imperative in how games make money.  Wasn't the first big surge of players because Eve just announced something that could have been leaning into p2w territory?  Those players left out of protest over just the idea of it, and ironically injected a lot of members into the game here.

My question is: should we expect different results?
If it works, and this game comes to life, and devs can justify investing more hours (and new hires) for the game, I'll get over it.


Damn i have to second you again. Are you sure you're not an alt of me i'm not aware of wink?
You're absolutely right with the history lesson about EvE refugees. They (me too) were upset about CCPs shameless attempt at money grab with ridiculous expensive monocles (fluff so not much of a problem) and (planned) gold ammo for real money only. That brought roughly ~1000 players to try Perpetuum hoping to find something without p2w. The general chat spiked at 800 or 900 back then - if i remember correctly.

The current 2 sparks are not a serious problem (although the one with 5% damage and 10 masking strength is VERY tasty) but what comes next? Ever seen a game introducing p2w elements and NOT gliding ever deeper into the pit? My concerns go to new players - not vets - since they get the shaft if they're not willing or able to purchase extra kits and upgrades past the base game.
I just hope it pays off - population wise an literally. A vital game is always better than no game at all.

+1657858

I do feel the same issues but if the game can get to a point where it's virtually FTP while still getting enough income from stuff like this to be viable I think that really will help with the population. 300k ep is enough to reasonably pilot a mk2 wear or mech, it's a good number. The Sparks I think are more for vets than newer players but anything that will make someone who already owns the game put money in to the game is good. I've often thought that credits were not worth bothering for me and pvp ammo, gold sparks etc might be an opportunity to get some extra cash out of existing customers.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

21 (edited by Naismith 2015-12-20 04:41:28)

Re: Pay to win?

Key thing in preventing P2W from happening in reality is to do what the Devs have been doing recently. Don't listen to Jita. Don't listen to Burial. Don't listen to Annihilator. Their bad track record is proven beyond a doubt.

Do listen to everyone else and actively investigate what's going on in game.

Keep black bots, gold ammo, gold whatever out of the cash shop. Make it about premium, trading premium, and that's the game's best chance of getting somewhere.

It's not a very good chance because it's a 5+ year old MMO with dated graphics and some bad aspects to it, but it's the best chance the game has.

22 (edited by Gwyndor 2015-12-20 14:48:03)

Re: Pay to win?

Edit: drunken post

Re: Pay to win?

IT'S NOT PAY TO WIN.  YOU CANNOT PAY TO WIN IN A SANDBOX.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Pay to win?

Ville wrote:

IT'S NOT PAY TO WIN.  YOU CANNOT PAY TO WIN IN A SANDBOX.

Well it's possible I guess but this isn't it. My only slight concern is that your paying for permanent advantage. If you were to pay for black mechs or pvp ammo that can be destroyed and dropped as loot. At best it's a temporary advantage.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

25 (edited by Mr Dude 2015-12-20 18:52:37)

Re: Pay to win?

logicalNegation wrote:
logicalNegation wrote:

If more income means the game gets more development and players online: then I'll concede my point.

My only suspicion is that once it can be argued that this game is p2w, it will be labeled as such.  Many players avoid this out of some moral imperative in how games make money.  Wasn't the first big surge of players because Eve just announced something that could have been leaning into p2w territory?  Those players left out of protest over just the idea of it, and ironically injected a lot of members into the game here.

My question is: should we expect different results?
If it works, and this game comes to life, and devs can justify investing more hours (and new hires) for the game, I'll get over it.

You talking about SP Pack story in EvE? Is it been canceled?
can't it die alredy as it is, so we won't hear these news about how low the initially good game can fall...

On the topic...
Unlimited EP Packs would be P2W. But we have only one per account. And i hope it'll stays this way, sane, unlike those crippled fools from CCP who need to lose a significant number of players to begin thinking a little.

As for sparks. I'm not really care, i'll buy it for EP, but if it's really P2W then it's no good.
Shop and F2P is a good idea.