76 (edited by Saha 2011-01-08 07:36:34)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

DEV Alf wrote:

EW light bots' strength is not the EW itself, only their speed (and that will be nerfed a bit), and only the speed matters, you can engage in combat when you want to engage, you are not forced to fight, until you want to. And if you got ganked by nonewar light bots,  actually you would  die even faster, their dps is about the double of the ewars, and they could still run behind cover, or run out of range when get targeted (and much cheaper!).
I remember a time when there were really strong EW, and there was a Kain without LWF restriction.

You better be joking. Listening to couple *** who know nothing but fitting their squads with plates and then crying about getting *** by ewars or speed fit mechs/ewars... If you want to "balance" game to them you might as well nerf all shooting ranges to 100 meters, speed to 20 kph, establish more safe zones and "enjoy" blob warfare while watching game die.

Don't you bloody think there's something wrong with people behind keyboard if their 200-300 people alliances who "control" beta island can't defend against 5-10 man ewar gang rather than ewars being OP? What you'll nerf next? Properly fit mech speed to 30 kph and range to 200 meters so that blobers can feel good with their assault zergs? *** that, buff light bots and arkees now or they'll keep crying something is OP after you nerf things one after another. Clue, where is it?

77 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-01-08 07:49:56)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

reposted from this thread:  http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … ar/page/2/

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Well, sounds like lot of butthurt going on from ewars, so of course, the easy response is nerf them, so you do not get owned by them...

The problem is not fast ewar groups, the problem is "you" and your choices. 

Yes, ewar is fast, and other than demob, has long range effects.  However, ewar has a paper tank, a speed fit ewar that does get demobbed is basically dead, and the dps from 2.5 ewar = 1 assault bot at best.

How "you" should handle ewar gangs - have scouts at teleports.  Forewarned is forearmed. Respond with fast ewar groups, with demob, and assaults for dps on demobbed targets.  Look at your intel channels to see when gangs have come onto your island, drop what you are doing, get in gang, and help hunt them down.

Ewar are EASILY killed, when handled appropriately.  Need to go faster to catch them?  Get Nav to 10 and equip a T4 lightweight frame.  But you too will also have a paper tank then, and be on equal footing with the enemy ewar.

Pppl need to understand that they have to think abit, and put effort into it, in order to respond to a fast ewar gang, instead of responding with "it needs to be hit with the nerf bat" because "you" have either gotten pwned by it, or unable to engage them because you are trying to chase them in assaults or light bots.

BTW, most fast roam ewar setups for wolfpacks usually are just sensor amp, demob, and tunings.  Start fitting a full ewar setup, lets say amp, demob, and 2 ewar mods based on bot bonus', and the first thing you see if it has guns and rep, is that it is going in the mid 90's at best .  At that point, if you want speed, you have to sacrifice the guns, and do no damage..

So all this crap about op and unfair is just that, crap, by ppl who either do not think about how to counter, or do not want to have to train the skillz and go to the expense to properly fit a bot to counter them.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Annihilator wrote:

sounds like m2s afraid of having their favourite tool nerfed.

just by the pure announcement that they gonna nerf the EWAR lights speed, you start to cry out.
You dont even know how MUCH it will be nerfed.
one of the favourite quotes from PvPers i remember is "every Kph counts".
so if they are still 1 kph faster then any other bot... (multplied with lwf, proto equip and nav10) thats still a speed advantage.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

79 (edited by Deliv Erance 2011-01-08 12:05:31)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

wrong topic my bad

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

so if they are still 1 kph faster then any other bot... (multplied with lwf, proto equip and nav10) thats still a speed advantage.

You're right. But in that case, why nerf them at all?

Frankly the ewars should be faster than the other bots by a significant amount, and not just by 1 kph. 1 kph can be changed by the type of weapons you're fitting, whether you're fitting tunings or ewar modules, etc.

Ewars are supposed to be the fast 'fighter' bots. Learn how to deal with them. Some of you already have. We got stopped twice the other day by a tight group of assaults. If the group is tight, we cannot engage with only ewars without getting one of our bots blown to crap.

This is a L2P (learn to play) issue, and not a balancing issue. I can't even count the number of times I've lost my cameleon any more. Why?

Because :

1) ewar bots have VERY low HP.
2) Despite speed advantage, with the use of geometry you can catch an ewar that makes a bad decision on terrain.
3) Intakts *** the *** out of my cameleon if they can get in firing range... and especially if I have been demobbed.
4) Despite all of the expensive modules I like to put on my ewar that make it worth 10+ million NIC, I can still get caught off guard by a speed fit demobber, or any of the other reasons I listed above.

So you want to talk about whining, how about you all quit whining about paper-thin little ewar bots that terrorize you, corner them and blow them up. Or at the very least you can undock in combat bots and stick together as a cohesive unit and not let them pick you off one at a time...

In Other Words: Learn How To Play

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

(multplied with lwf, proto equip and nav10) thats still a speed advantage.

Oh, and one last *** You to you, whoever you are who I never see while roaming out on the beta islands...

I've never equipped a prototype module on my ewar bot. You seem to think we're freakin mystical ninjas that spring out of the darkness on you. Yes, I have Nav 10. Maybe you should think about getting it. But I don't use prototype modules. L2P please... pleeeease for the love of goddamned Christ Mohommad and Buddah WTF.

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Reefpirate wrote:

(multplied with lwf, proto equip and nav10) thats still a speed advantage.

Oh, and one last *** You to you, whoever you are who I never see while roaming out on the beta islands...

I've never equipped a prototype module on my ewar bot. You seem to think we're freakin mystical ninjas that spring out of the darkness on you. Yes, I have Nav 10. Maybe you should think about getting it. But I don't use prototype modules. L2P please... pleeeease for the love of goddamned Christ Mohommad and Buddah WTF.

Drunk Reef for the win. <3

Also, he has a point. Robots are cheap. Use them. Make us suffer losses we can already replace just like we make you suffer.

The Game

83 (edited by Container 2011-01-08 17:14:20)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Siddy wrote:

nerfing ewar will remove our tools of trade

Reefpirate wrote:

There already is a counter to ewar gangs...
bring a few ewars

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

How "you" should handle ewar gangs -
Respond with fast ewar groups

"Can't live without Ewar lights", "the way to handle Ewar lights is other Ewar lights".
Listen to how these guys have become so caught up in playing only Ewar Swarm Online they cannot see past it to the possibility that better game balance mechanics exists.

Hypocritically saying Ewars are weak and other bots are useful too then using nothing but only-EWAR swarms day after day after day in raids.
Highlighting how single Ewars are so weak compared to single lights and assaults, but not mentioning how multiple Ewars scale up into an unlockable unkillable uncatchable swarm.

Which exactly supports the whole point that EWAR lights are dominating PVP too much that it is making PVP ONE DIMENSIONAL.
Boring.

Nerf it so it is only one among the many different types of bots used, not the main or only bot used in so many cases.

84 (edited by Mc Mannus 2011-01-08 17:38:27)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

I sincerly hope that you (devs) decide to let the game mature BEFORE making decisions like nerfing this nerfing that blabla.... To all complainers get some more pvp-experience since there are plenty of ways to handle a roaming ewar group, like many have tried explaining in good detail.

Work together with your teammates (planning fittings/vent or ts/ knowing your terrain etc) will be enough to tackle most the game can throw at you, including the ow so dreaded ewar roaming packs.

And when more and more people get their extensions up and more advanced bots are out in the field, you will see ewar will be even less threathening.

And ffs stop being so Scared to lose your precious pixels man, everything is cheap as hell anyway.....

(edit: spelling)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

ofc ewar is the flavour of the month, we're all still level 1!

I look forward to seeing the whine post in a few months time crying to nerf ewar mechs coz they become flavour of the month.

And as to cheap, Infestation ewar run with t3/4 fittings so that aint cheap, which is why we are effective.

If we didnt have to move fast to catch everyone hiding in the outposts and safe zones then we might bring other stuff as well.

You might say that those people whining and hiding have created this situation so reap what you sow, so to speak. wink

I know for one that i will be very disappointed in the devs if they rise this carebear whining

86 (edited by Alexander 2011-01-08 18:06:47)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Remove all safe zones. Add a new interceptor robot (Speed and demob bonus but no DPS).
Then you can reduce the speed of light ewar.

The Game

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

ewars are best to try to catch people because all that happens is we're scouting 10 times through alpha and lastly on the teleport on their islan, so if we want ANY chance of catching people we need maximum speed possible.  its not about being untouchable, but being able to zip from place to place as fast as possible.  We could bring out bigger bots and be just as untouchable as we already are, but the problem is we wouldn't catch anything.

Yes, you can still have ewar to zoom to the target when something comes in range, but if we're slower on average they have that much more time to be informed by their scouts and get to safety.

Defense forces have alreay been successful at defending against us with the proper setups, but we also dont have quite enough EP to utilize ewar mechs properly that can dispatch of ewar lights fairly easy.  We just haven't had the EP development yet to start complaining about balance.  Maybe 2 more months and if ewar squads are rolling heavy mech w/ heavy remote repairers we can talk balance.

->You just lost The Game<-

88 (edited by Exomorph 2011-01-08 20:37:25)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Neoxx wrote:

Defense forces have alreay been successful at defending against us with the proper setups, but we also dont have quite enough EP to utilize ewar mechs properly that can dispatch of ewar lights fairly easy.  We just haven't had the EP development yet to start complaining about balance.  Maybe 2 more months and if ewar squads are rolling heavy mech w/ heavy remote repairers we can talk balance.

This! Totally agree! We are just at start in this game, and light EWs aren't that OP, than many of you guys think. For better performance and minimal losses you'll need to fit better eq than standard (and often better than t2). And of course you need well balanced party for success, with a PVP experience too.

For now just assault robots needs balance. They are too slow to catch even a mech. Imo they need a bit speed buff (5-8 km/h) and they will be used again not just in PVE.

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Exomorph wrote:

For now just assault robots needs balance. They are too slow to catch even a mech. Imo they need a bit speed buff (5-8 km/h) and they will be used again not just in PVE.

Ok, then slope capability below mech please.

If assaults become considerably faster than mechs, its pointless to use mechs.
As long as assaults and mechs have same speed, both will have uses.

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Saha wrote:
DEV Alf wrote:

EW light bots' strength is not the EW itself, only their speed (and that will be nerfed a bit), and only the speed matters, you can engage in combat when you want to engage, you are not forced to fight, until you want to. And if you got ganked by nonewar light bots,  actually you would  die even faster, their dps is about the double of the ewars, and they could still run behind cover, or run out of range when get targeted (and much cheaper!).
I remember a time when there were really strong EW, and there was a Kain without LWF restriction.

You better be joking. Listening to couple *** who know nothing but fitting their squads with plates and then crying about getting *** by ewars or speed fit mechs/ewars... If you want to "balance" game to them you might as well nerf all shooting ranges to 100 meters, speed to 20 kph, establish more safe zones and "enjoy" blob warfare while watching game die.

Don't you bloody think there's something wrong with people behind keyboard if their 200-300 people alliances who "control" beta island can't defend against 5-10 man ewar gang rather than ewars being OP? What you'll nerf next? Properly fit mech speed to 30 kph and range to 200 meters so that blobers can feel good with their assault zergs? *** that, buff light bots and arkees now or they'll keep crying something is OP after you nerf things one after another. Clue, where is it?

You mad bro?

Who the $#@% is stEvE?

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Siddy wrote:
Exomorph wrote:

For now just assault robots needs balance. They are too slow to catch even a mech. Imo they need a bit speed buff (5-8 km/h) and they will be used again not just in PVE.

Ok, then slope capability below mech please.

If assaults become considerably faster than mechs, its pointless to use mechs.
As long as assaults and mechs have same speed, both will have uses.

What uses? Mechs have 2-3x range then assaults. Assaults pose threat to nothing atm, they're just moving free targets.

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

In my opinion, EWAR is not the problem. (Although i would like to see Light Combat Bots increase in base speed.)
The problem is the scenario.
Raiders come to an island. The residents of the island gather intel and determine if it is a winnable fight with minimal losses. The raiders do the same. There is no tangible reason for either side to be willing to risk serious losses.

Raiders come? Residents can dock up, chill out for a bit. They will leave. Losses? Some lost mining time for the residents.

On the raiders side, if the residents gather a force of assaults with EWAR support the raiders won't engage. But there is no loss from not engaging. The bad side is small waste of time.

Here we have a stalemate. And this is why EWARS are used so much. Its one of the only viable options for the "Roaming gang" Scenario.

If there were say, other scenarios, objectives on the island that gave tangible substantial rewards for defense, or good rewards for taking objectives over, I think you would see more determined efforts to control a portion of terrain meaning more use of heavier armor. More gangs willing to push the envelope and take more risks. More reasons for raiders to bring some heavier gear to deal with residents defenses. More clans raiding.

If there were many of these objectives spread around the Island, you would most likely see smaller fights more often. A few buddies get together to take over a point for some extra cash or maybe a shot at rare items. Possible items only obtainable from these points? Possible objectives that require a decent amount of DPS to take down, and requiring Lights/assaults or mechs.

Every good PvP'er wants a fight. Thats why we play. But as it stands there is nothing to really fight over. As it stands there is only the "Roaming gang" scenario, or a weekly large scale battle intrusion.

93 (edited by Ulver 2011-01-09 04:01:50)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

I agree with better motives. There should be a net of motives and struggels for any size of team with rewards for combat. Ultimately full assault for key-points but lesser goals for smaller teams and mining and industry should be part of it. Make us fight.

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

It's not that ew bots are overpowered, they suck really, it's just that you need that kind of speed to ever perform effectively as a skirmish group. People find speed to be fun so I'm not sure a nerf is the best thing. Hell they arnt even running full skirmish gangs at 120 yet.

Tbh I would give it a couple of months. All a speed nerf would do is make it harder to catch people - in pvp your speed isn't important, it's your speed relative to your target that matters.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

95 (edited by Siddy 2011-01-09 11:50:23)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

devast wrote:
Siddy wrote:
Exomorph wrote:

For now just assault robots needs balance. They are too slow to catch even a mech. Imo they need a bit speed buff (5-8 km/h) and they will be used again not just in PVE.

Ok, then slope capability below mech please.

If assaults become considerably faster than mechs, its pointless to use mechs.
As long as assaults and mechs have same speed, both will have uses.

What uses? Mechs have 2-3x range then assaults. Assaults pose threat to nothing atm, they're just moving free targets.

Assaults have better slope capacity, hit all targets properly and have 10% damage bonus against 2x sized targets (mechs and so on).

Average assault, when fitted with LWF is faster than mech by 1-2 kph.


The fact that people use hammers as screwdrivers and play drums with they own *** is none of my concern. 
The current "balance problems" in this game is "Learn to Play" issues, instead of any of actual game items being blatantly overpowered.

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

ah c'mon m2s, if you really as good as you say in PvP, you would break up your alliance on hokko and fight against all those other PvP nerds that gathered on your side.

Its the same as in Beta, where 90% of the "we want PvP, you are all carebears" are in the same corp or alliance. You dont need the speed to roam two other islands, if you can find the fight is just around at the next outpost, where the other corp sits that says "you all suck in pvp"

from what i hear, you would even meet joke more often when they visit your own island.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Annihilator wrote:

ah c'mon m2s, if you really as good as you say in PvP, you would break up your alliance on hokko and fight against all those other PvP nerds that gathered on your side.

Its the same as in Beta, where 90% of the "we want PvP, you are all carebears" are in the same corp or alliance. You dont need the speed to roam two other islands, if you can find the fight is just around at the next outpost, where the other corp sits that says "you all suck in pvp"

from what i hear, you would even meet joke more often when they visit your own island.

If we were just 1 corp we probably wouldnt still be on Hokk.  Sad but true, we had to increase our overall size (alliance) in order to deal with the mega blob alliances.

If we would have had 25 instead of 45 at the Darmahol fight, I dont think we would have had any chance.  We had enough dps to puncture their front line, and eventually wore them down.  The best tactics in the world still cant win if you cant break their reppers.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Siddy wrote:
devast wrote:
Siddy wrote:

Ok, then slope capability below mech please.

If assaults become considerably faster than mechs, its pointless to use mechs.
As long as assaults and mechs have same speed, both will have uses.

What uses? Mechs have 2-3x range then assaults. Assaults pose threat to nothing atm, they're just moving free targets.

Assaults have better slope capacity, hit all targets properly and have 10% damage bonus against 2x sized targets (mechs and so on).

Average assault, when fitted with LWF is faster than mech by 1-2 kph.


The fact that people use hammers as screwdrivers and play drums with they own *** is none of my concern. 
The current "balance problems" in this game is "Learn to Play" issues, instead of any of actual game items being blatantly overpowered.

Better slope capacity, damage bonus, and better hit dispersion doesnt mean anything, if assaults cant catch up. And they can't. Only a bapho can be fitted to be barely faster then an average mech. Still, if they have 1-2kph speed advantage, it would take several minutes to catch up, meanwhile they are basically free targets.

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

Removed offtopic posts. Any other thoughts still on the original topic?

100 (edited by Kyr 2011-01-11 01:40:58)

Re: EWAR Lights too Cost-effective for PVP it makes other Bots Meaningless

light bot counter ewar bot if they nearly same speed

i suggest skill matters so just give light bots like 1.5 kmh more speed each rank in basic robotics

assault counter light mechs if they have superior range

i suggest skill matters give assault bots 5% more locking range and 2% more optimal weapon range for each point in basic robotics


light kill ewar
assault kill light

ewar kill nothing direct but are very valuable support for other bots/mechs to kill stuff

that would be my balancing attempt

even if hurt us (infestation) most
i would be sure whereever game mechanics get changed
we are the first who adapt and still the best on battlefield

as long as rules are same for u and us we will beat u

we would just roam ur islands with ewar/light mixed forces and still beat u

beside maybe the defending assault we able to just avoid because we still have superior speed

<<< REAL POWER CAN NOT BE GIVEN, IT MUST BE TAKEN >>>

Kyr - Perpetuum Online
Helios Norlund - Darkfall Online