Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

you mean curves are a horror if your using the autopilot wink

while i agree with ville that the distances should be equal, i do not agree with it beeing much more work to achieve (hello wavefront algorithm). you let the algorithm run once with a seed at every PoI (in this case the outposts) and it tells you exactly where the distance is equal (either by color gradient, or with a number on each tile)

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Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

I will definitely NOT make every single distance on betas the same. There has to be variance in the value of different outposts and in the strategies involved in taking and keeping them, otherwise the whole thing will reek of staleness.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

then do what ever the *** you want too and stop asking us for input.

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Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

well, those outposts still have non-equal placed SAPs, terrain and such.

btw, i want to thank you for considering connecting the beta TERMINAL with alpha.

while i would still prefer if you made it more like the terminals beeing the entry point to the zone, with a few defense turrets around with constant NPC attacks beeing fended off by defense turrets. you know, less camping because staying afk there will kill you for sure wink

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55 (edited by Naismith 2015-08-20 07:05:54)

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

DEV Zoom wrote:

I will definitely NOT make every single distance on betas the same. There has to be variance in the value of different outposts and in the strategies involved in taking and keeping them, otherwise the whole thing will reek of staleness.

I agree with this, I always felt that Beta islands (and the game world itself) would benefit from less symmetry.

I haven't had time to pull out the crayons (busy RL) but here's some food for thought Zoom:

1. Consider the robot speeds (~100kph demob immune pre-highway boost) vs terminal - TP distances
2. If someone wants to scout entrances into their Beta they will put down probes, doesn't matter if it's 2 or 5 entrances (5 probes = 5 mil, 1 epriton field = 200 mil)
3. All of Beta being accessible from Alpha encourages risk-averse corporations that base out of Alpha and do pretty much only epi mining and PvP on Beta.

I like that there's a difference between outposts, I'd argue to take it in the opposite direction:

1. Slap a few outposts on some of the unused Gamma islands, have the community polish-terraform them for you on the test server (doesn't matter how long it takes, you placed the burden of responsibility on the community not on yourself),
2. Then expand the design so some islands have a lot of connections and few outposts, some have a lot of outposts and few connections, doesn't matter as long as it's 100% not symmetrical - some real estate can be better then other!
3. Vary the mineral capacity so islands closer to alpha have smaller epi fields (to simulate depletion of resources and encourage corps to venture deeper into uncharted territory & encourage local marketing over hauling everything to Tellesis),
4. Double cargo sizes of all robots (how long does it take for newbies to get indy 10 vs reaching L5 of missions)
5. Only connect Beta 1's to Alpha 2 (encourage people to go deeper into Beta), chain the others Beta's together in a triangle or daisy chain (I will crayon this when I get some time)

Total work for you = tweaking some teleport connections, spanking people like Anni and Ville for not terraforming, copy pasting and editing a few database values, and the game world drastically opens up.

56 (edited by Goffer 2015-08-20 07:22:10)

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

I don't like the idea, to be from alpha faster on gamma, than on beta2.
And with this tp change you should consider the SAP placement as well. First point to consider is walk time from alpha to SAP, especially if it is Speciman.  Second point is walk time from corresponding outpost, third point is distance over air (regarding detection), forth point is, is the SAP accessable without passing near outpost (can masked bot reach it, when detector is running beneath terminal)

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Does anyone else feel like this is a ploy to allow people to run away?  crying about more teleports and more ways into beta and gamma?  I think the mindset of where the alpha gates and the relation to how close they are to gamma gates is unrealistic.  You're making it too easy for people to be able to get on and off the island.  I understand that you want multiple gates onto beta to keep people from jumping on few gates, however, if you take abbu into consideration there are 3 teleports that surround abbu which makes defense a nightmare.  I like the fact that there are so many entries into beta.  But, look at the placement of the alpha gates... they're everywhere.  You can get to any part of the island from alpha.  I think the alpha gates should be placed more towards the coastlines.  If you want to do stuff on beta you should be forced to commit.  My suggestions would be to place the teleports where Nawuy stands now, Gavastarc 2 and Teodoma.  AS for teodoma gate maybe moved more towards the coast to the left.  Like almost inbetween Darmahol 1 and Teodoma is now.  The only thing you accomplish putting these teleports all over the place is allowing people to run back to alpha.  So the question is do you want people to be able to gank and egress quickly? or you want an open beta where everyone just griefs everyone.  Because that's where this is going to lead, people able to play alpha gate games with no risk while pestering people on beta.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Well it seems like it's impossible to satisfy all the goals you have mentioned at once, but most of you seemed to have problems with the Alpha-Gamma distance.

So how about this then:
http://content.perpetuum-online.com/ima … twork2.png

I feel like the outposts have similar potential this way, though maybe for different reasons (where the teleports come from, how many surround them, main terminal proximity).

I'm now also more leaning towards indeed cutting Alpha2-Beta2 connections and having two 1to1 Alpha2-Beta1 connections with ample distance between them on Alpha2s. That could increase the value of Beta2 outposts.

59 (edited by Burial 2015-08-20 10:22:46)

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Ville wrote:

then do what ever the *** you want too and stop asking us for input.

I agree with Zoom here, some variety is good.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well it seems like it's impossible to satisfy all the goals you have mentioned at once, but most of you seemed to have problems with the Alpha-Gamma distance.

So how about this then:
http://content.perpetuum-online.com/ima … twork2.png

I feel like the outposts have similar potential this way, though maybe for different reasons (where the teleports come from, how many surround them, main terminal proximity).

I'm now also more leaning towards indeed cutting Alpha2-Beta2 connections and having two 1to1 Alpha2-Beta1 connections with ample distance between them on Alpha2s. That could increase the value of Beta2 outposts.

It looks good, especially the walk from Abbuthilia to Darmahol to the internal vs taking the mountain road to ASB nicely offers a lot of interesting choices to players and opportunity for other players to interrupt and create content. I like the trend of doing away with internal teleports and putting more emphasis on highways to generate most of the traffic on an island.

I'm really excited at the prospect of Beta 2's being isolated from direct Alpha access, it offers a very interesting choice for corporation leaders and adds a lot of value (harder to reach) to Beta 2's. Currently for a corporation, it makes no sense to do anything but cram all your eggs into 1 station, but with the changes you are proposing regarding isolating Beta 2's from Alpha, I can definitely see potential benefit toward spreading things out.

I like the potential (much later on) of Gamma islands being chained on to the Beta 2 islands, dividing up the routes into Gamma between Beta 1 and Beta 2, perhaps meeting down in the chain. I'll have to get some crayons out to accurately relate what I'm thinking.

You're on a good road here Zoom, run with it. smile

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

that one looks better.

im not fond of channeling the whole beta 2 access through beta 1, unless you offer enough landing points for interzone porters (let them teleport to a waypoint on another island instead of a static teleport!!)

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Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Annihilator wrote:

that one looks better.

im not fond of channeling the whole beta 2 access through beta 1, unless you offer enough landing points for interzone porters (let them teleport to a waypoint on another island instead of a static teleport!!)

You can still do Alpha1 to Beta2 with interzones.

But using waypoints as targets would be very OP and prone to getting stuck in holes and vegetation.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

New one looks better, still terrible but better.

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Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

I have to disagree.

Whoever wants to scout their entrances will either drop enough probes or enough bots on gates. Once upon a time before probes, alliances paid people to sit alts on gates and keep watch while mining ops were ongoing and there were 6 entrances into Beta.

POE used interzones extensively before to travel from one side of the world to another in ~5-10 minutes easy. Sparks are being removed for a reason, power projection is simply too strong and interzones are just another spark-teleport with a small delay.

I'm in favor of making players walk the world, and commit to attacking or defending a territory. I'm tired of murdering a fleet on Alsbale then 30 seconds later I'm on Kentagura killing some poor Argano, then I'm back on Domhalarn chasing CHAOS, then I'm back on Norhoop killing Inda because his internet is terrible... It's just too much jumping around the game world.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

I dont understand this at all Zoom, its silly. Your removing sparks but making it just as easy to move.

IMO all highways to Beta should be cut and Beta shouldn't have any highways at all, you need to increase the time it takes to get to a beta station from alpha not decrease it.

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Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Jita wrote:

I dont understand this at all Zoom, its silly. Your removing sparks but making it just as easy to move.

IMO all highways to Beta should be cut and Beta shouldn't have any highways at all, you need to increase the time it takes to get to a beta station from alpha not decrease it.

I respectfully disagree, we don't need to increase walking times, we need to create risk and opportunity. And there is ample of those even with highways, not much so with spark teleporting.

edit: I would even argue that highways and the promise of faster movement even lures more players there than now.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

The promise of faster travel with highways is certainly a step in the right direction, I feel the game needs to move away from instant teleports (spark and interzone alike) from and to Alpha safety, towards a more fluid travel system.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Naismith wrote:

The promise of faster travel with highways is certainly a step in the right direction, I feel the game needs to move away from instant teleports (spark and interzone alike) from and to Alpha safety, towards a more fluid travel system.

They should remove teleports from and too pvp zones completely.

Why would you risk mining any of the ABC materials on Beta if the travel time is very low? Making beta hard to get too and from increases the likelyhood that beta residents will use local resources and not alpha resources. It also decreases the risk for people doing that by making gank fleets easier to spot due to increased travel time, decreasing power projection and therefore localizing residents rather than making them be over two or three locations.

This change would move further to make beta a place to visit and not live by making visiting easier and living more difficult.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Thats what this change does. Makes living there more easier and more profitable then visiting from Alpha. Beta 2 being disconnected from Alpha promotes that even more. With new changes on the horizon for the game it is looking very sweet.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Jita wrote:

Making beta hard to get too and from increases the likelyhood that beta residents will use local resources and not alpha resources. It also decreases the risk for people doing that by making gank fleets easier to spot due to increased travel time, decreasing power projection and therefore localizing residents rather than making them be over two or three locations.

This change would move further to make beta a place to visit and not live by making visiting easier and living more difficult.

Making beta hard to get to and from indeed increases the likelyhood of people actually living there, however as I see it that's actually a problem currently. If you go that way, betas become a safe haven for the strongest player faction there, slowly boring themselves to death. Because if I as an outsider know that it's hard to get to, I don't even begin to try to get there. Remember when people started to miss casual beta roaming?

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

but casual beta roaming happened BECAUSE people lived there. Until you get people mining and ratting on Beta you won't get roaming and its just sap warfare, the same status quo its been for years.

What you need is the opportunity for everyone to live there, the incentive for them to do industry there and the illusion of safety while they are there.

This change reduces the incentive to live there by making access to most of its resources easier and increases the risk by making it easier to move around the island for PvPers.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Are Beta 2s still getting a terminal?

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Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Ville wrote:

Are Beta 2s still getting a terminal?

I hope not, that was a bad idea.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Jita wrote:

but casual beta roaming happened BECAUSE people lived there. Until you get people mining and ratting on Beta you won't get roaming and its just sap warfare, the same status quo its been for years.

Maybe that was the case when we actually had players. Now the veterans outweigh all the casual people who might want to get a piece of the beta-cake and nothing will change if we just let the former bunch roll around on their own private betas neatly shut away from the world.

And I believe once random missions roll out on betas with their beta bonuses, that'll be a nice incentive to have actual and frequent visitiors there, or food for PvP if looking at it from your perspective.

Re: Teleportgrid / Highways

Well that's kind of the point of:

a) stopping power projection - sparks is a step in the right direction, roads such as this is a step backwards

B) station opening - that removes the barrier to ownership promoting residence.

Your right that the changes will promote visitors but that's all it will promote. Ninja beta users and not residents.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."