1 (edited by DEV Zoom 2015-08-17 20:33:33)

Topic: Facility balance

So while diving into the balance of industrial facility points as mentioned in the roadmap blog, the question arose whether the 2 randomly missing facilities on Beta 1 outposts contribute to anything meaningful. It was probably made like this to generate conflict but you probably just go back to Alpha 2 or something, don't you.

edit:
Err nevermind, they don't have missing facilities.
That's what you get for having different configurations on the dev server...

Oh well we can continue discussing general facility balance then smile

Re: Facility balance

Still a step in the right direction, although higher efficiencies are much more desireable, bearing in mind the terminals cannot be locked and that's a good base advantage outpost have.

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Re: Facility balance

The basic question what is the needed reward for the risk at Beta.

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Re: Facility balance

whats this risk/reward thingy?
does it bring more player into the game? or keep them playing?

but ontopic - what random missing facilities? i thought under the current outpost system every outpost has the everything except the two gamma exclusive facilities.

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Re: Facility balance

To clarify, beta facility points will be boosted, my question is meant additionally to that.

Re: Facility balance

Annihilator wrote:

but ontopic - what random missing facilities? i thought under the current outpost system every outpost has the everything except the two gamma exclusive facilities.

Beta1 outposts have only 4 facilities each, instead of all 6.

Re: Facility balance

Err nevermind, they don't.
That's what you get for having different configurations on the dev server...

Oh well we can continue discussing general facility balance then smile

Re: Facility balance

So this is what I currently have in mind for facility points:

Alpha 1 main terminals:
All 0 (no change)

Alpha 1 outposts:
Current: 0~50 (higher on selected facilities)
New:      0~25

Alpha 2 main terminals:
Current: All 50
New:      25~50

Beta main terminals:
Current: All 50
New:      50~100

Beta outposts:
As you know the facilities here can be manually upgraded 3 times each, using a maximum of 10 points at the highest stability (1 point per 10 stability).
Currently the levels are:     0-  50-100-125
This would be changed to: 50-100-125-150
(Meaning even if you don't spend any upgrade points, all the outpost facilities are at 50)

Re: Facility balance

I was always curious why do you even have limitations on how many points you can spend on a station? Why can't I dump 10 stability points into refining and have a kick-ass best-in-game refinery if I don't mind everything else sucking balls?

10 (edited by Celebro 2015-08-17 22:04:52)

Re: Facility balance

One of the issues I have is the alpha1 outpost remain barely worth it, being off the beaten path and having everything needed on alpha 2s, moving to alpha 2 sounds like a no brainer.

Could we mix it up a little here, aside from industry level. Could we speed up some production lines to alpha1 to level this out a little, maybe add more proto lines for beta only, stuff like that is what I would look for.


edit: another thing would be to give production bonuses to t1-t2 mods on alpha1 and lights, t3 bonuses on alpha2 and assualts, mechs/heavies and t4 bonuses on beta.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Facility balance

Naismith wrote:

I was always curious why do you even have limitations on how many points you can spend on a station? Why can't I dump 10 stability points into refining and have a kick-ass best-in-game refinery if I don't mind everything else sucking balls?

I was always* curious whats the point of it at all.
*: well, always after it was proven not really working...

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Re: Facility balance

Zoom you should be able to max out all facilities in a beta station imo.

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Re: Facility balance

The points should be like a pool that can be applied to any facility as needed but on a cool down timer, so changing from refining to proto should require a 24 hour cool down.

My understanding is that atm you can only have 3 maxed out, and that's fine but if you want to do something other than those 3 you have to actually take the station down and bring it back up again. At least that's my understanding anyway. Which seems a bit silly tbh.

Re: Facility balance

We can perhaps do a downgrade option with a cooldown but I don't think being able to max out all of them would be good.

Re: Facility balance

Celebro wrote:

One of the issues I have is the alpha1 outpost remain barely worth it, being off the beaten path and having everything needed on alpha 2s, moving to alpha 2 sounds like a no brainer.

I think that will be only true until red NPCs return to Alpha2.

Re: Facility balance

DEV Zoom wrote:

So this is what I currently have in mind for facility points:

Alpha 1 main terminals:
All 0 (no change)

Alpha 1 outposts:
Current: 0~50 (higher on selected facilities)
New:      0~25

Alpha 2 main terminals:
Current: All 50
New:      25~50

Beta main terminals:
Current: All 50
New:      50~100

Beta outposts:
As you know the facilities here can be manually upgraded 3 times each, using a maximum of 10 points at the highest stability (1 point per 10 stability).
Currently the levels are:     0-  50-100-125
This would be changed to: 50-100-125-150
(Meaning even if you don't spend any upgrade points, all the outpost facilities are at 50)

That's a 25 pts increase for a 3 point investment, so with perfect-everything that should bring the value to 300 pts for a max producer at a Beta outpost right?

With spark removal and field terminal tax tied into the Outposts as income, that's a pretty decent incentive to use Beta outposts and allow neutrals to mission in your Outpost sector.

What I would suggest is making the "station income" more clear and concise, right now the only reason I know what percentage I will get back from repairing modules is because 3-4 years ago I asked one of you Devs about it. This should be public information displayed in-game, so people can make a more informed choice on how they're spending their station points, and perhaps spending station points can increase that return percentage? What do you think Zoom?

Another suggestion would be to look into how "station income" is displayed in the corp accounting page. For example, if CIR is allowing people to mission and dock in our station, it would be really great if we saw what facilities were being used - then we could increase the value of those facilities (for example, repair shop) and that way stimulate newbies and random people missioning around our outpost. Breaking down "station income" into a more clearer and concise display of where the money is coming from would be a great step forward.

Re: Facility balance

Naismith wrote:

That's a 25 pts increase for a 3 point investment, so with perfect-everything that should bring the value to 300 pts for a max producer at a Beta outpost right?

Something like that. But do note that the change will be barely noticeable if you have already good extensions and relation due to how the efficiency point curve works.

But I think the display and management of station income would need its own topic.

Re: Facility balance

So percentage-wise, what kind of an increase are you looking at?

P.S.

Adding information to the facility like this:

Repair 125 pts (75% return income)

Or something like that would be a great addition. A lot of people don't know how much you get income-wise from repair/factory/prototyping etc.

Adding income from recycling and refining would be a nice addition and real good incentive to cultivate industrial centers, on top of whats already coming.

Re: Facility balance

Naismith wrote:

So percentage-wise, what kind of an increase are you looking at?

That really depends on the other two factors, but if we take the 125-150 facility change that's about 2-5% increase. But overall the gains are a lot more since all the facilities are boosted due to the 50 base value.

I'm also thinking about increasing the influence factor of relation there, with the rebalanced relation progression in missions it feels like not enough gain for all the fuss. Currently the relation part of the facility points is relation*5, I'd change that to relation*20, which would more or less bring it in line with the facility and extension factors.

Re: Facility balance

I think the numbers are about right. People still won't do industry in the stations though.

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21 (edited by Celebro 2015-08-18 15:42:32)

Re: Facility balance

DEV Zoom wrote:
Celebro wrote:

One of the issues I have is the alpha1 outpost remain barely worth it, being off the beaten path and having everything needed on alpha 2s, moving to alpha 2 sounds like a no brainer.

I think that will be only true until red NPCs return to Alpha2.

Red NPCs was on by default on the whole server, never found it to be an issue, ads little risk, still think alpha 2 would be the default option to do industry for most, and alpha1 remains a ghost town.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Facility balance

Jita wrote:

I think the numbers are about right. People still won't do industry in the stations though.


Yeah, for the simple reason of the risks getting your stuff locked in.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Facility balance

Celebro wrote:
Jita wrote:

I think the numbers are about right. People still won't do industry in the stations though.


Yeah, for the simple reason of the risks getting your stuff locked in.

Side conversation but this requires inactivity on the station owners part, locking is a  3+ day process.

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Re: Facility balance

Lemon wrote:
Celebro wrote:
Jita wrote:

I think the numbers are about right. People still won't do industry in the stations though.


Yeah, for the simple reason of the risks getting your stuff locked in.

Side conversation but this requires inactivity on the station owners part, locking is a  3+ day process.

Yeah everyone knows, doesn't change the facts though.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Facility balance

DEV Zoom wrote:
Naismith wrote:

So percentage-wise, what kind of an increase are you looking at?

That really depends on the other two factors, but if we take the 125-150 facility change that's about 2-5% increase. But overall the gains are a lot more since all the facilities are boosted due to the 50 base value.

I'm also thinking about increasing the influence factor of relation there, with the rebalanced relation progression in missions it feels like not enough gain for all the fuss. Currently the relation part of the facility points is relation*5, I'd change that to relation*20, which would more or less bring it in line with the facility and extension factors.

That sounds like it could work out really good, what are your thoughts on future Beta vs Gamma balancing? I don't have a Gamma production going on right now since CIR (and by extension, our alliance) produces and has been producing everything on Beta for years. If memory serves, a full T3 Gamma facility was in the area of 335 pts? Correct me if I'm wrong please. smile

It does also sound like extensions won't be much of a factor though, once relation and station levels are considered, how are you looking at max-extension producer vs mid-tier producer efficiency wise?