Topic: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Since the typical Summer hole silence started again, i came up with this while talking to someone.

Since most good games i liked in the far past of my youth got a sequel, or several of them, and all of them turned out to be WORSE:
Command&Conquer
Total Annihilation
Diablo

these three as example, all got sequels, that didn't stay true to what their existing fanbase liked about them. All three frenchises got converted into "eSports" titles: fast, hectic and exhausting gameplay.

what do you think would a sequel to Perpetuum look like?

Would it also try to cater for a completely different group of gamers? IMHO YES it would! Not intentionally, but I cannot imagine someone doing a second attempt at "open world pvp sandbox" with time based progression in the future ever again. at least one of the three factors would be dissed.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

A whole lot of the factors would be different judging by the ideas coming out the Devs lately.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Naismith wrote:

A whole lot of the factors would be different judging by the ideas coming out the Devs lately.

I won't deny that. We knew from the start that this was going to be a niche game, but it just got too niche.

4 (edited by Inda 2015-08-02 10:46:40)

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

So you are finally decided dont want to be a "too" niche game?

I would advice dont force people form teams, squads, let "lonely" players play more!

(Sorry Anni for the derail)

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

DEV Zoom wrote:
Naismith wrote:

A whole lot of the factors would be different judging by the ideas coming out the Devs lately.

I won't deny that. We knew from the start that this was going to be a niche game, but it just got too niche.

This game could comfortably be at the 5k mark but the decisions made have prevented that.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

DEV Zoom wrote:
Naismith wrote:

A whole lot of the factors would be different judging by the ideas coming out the Devs lately.

I won't deny that. We knew from the start that this was going to be a niche game, but it just got too niche.

I think you can make it appeal to a wider niche, without drastical measures like throwing away features that make PVP enjoyable like robot permadeath.

It can be horizontal, not just vertical. Providing goals for players to strive for would be a good solid step forward.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Inda wrote:

So you are finally decided dont want to be a "too" niche game?

I would advice dont force people form teams, squads, let "lonely" players play more!

(Sorry Anni for the derail)

its not really a derail, if you consider my signature smile

I would actually love if Perp 2.0 would be one coherent game, not three disconnected and incomplete ones in one client/world. Maybe then, DEV Alf's dream of orbital platforms to fight over, would have a chance to come true big_smile

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

I'd like a MOBA designed without the developers who thought up the robot change.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Everyone thought I was crazy crazy.
Now we see these popping up, and we all conveniently forget I called this months ago.

High Horse achieved.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Ville wrote:

I'd like a MOBA designed without the developers who thought up the robot change.

Preach it sister!

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

I like to think about the "time-based progresion" as a "ZPG elements" in the game.

There's more such games out there, not just two so-called "time-based". Actually, you might have some players who likes ZPG, because it's very cool, when you play a total ZPG, but sometimes having fun with it...

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

I told you, hats.  If you had made tradable hats people would play.  That and the necromancer bot.

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

13 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2015-08-05 04:17:21)

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Naismith wrote:

It can be horizontal, not just vertical. Providing goals for players to strive for would be a good solid step forward.

This alone I feel is one of the biggest problems with perpetuum. Most progression is simply vertical.
An example of this is the module tiers. We have T3 mods which are practically useless. why would you want to use them?
There is very little horizontal progression or very little to offer in the way of "side grading".

Another area:
Im guessing the changes to mech balance was an attempt to move away from vertical progression. The fact is it made most mechs useless & a few very powerful. 

On top of that 2 robotic extension were added which actually made it harder for new players to access mechs & use them effectively.


The problem with changing any games direction after so many years is you have a greater chance of breaking the fundamentals of the game. And create a domino effect where in the end the game you end up with isnt actually anything like what you intended to have.

The big problem is the DEVs fail to see & understand how / when changing 1 area of the game effects other separate mechanics.

Case in point.... increasing bot speed & plant density handed a huge nerf to missile mechs. on top of the nerfs these bots received in the mech "balance".

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Progression is vertical, because the game is developed as "themepark" game, and most player suggestions i see, support that development. Just look at Jitas "Conference" - most talk was about the themepark area "Beta".

Extensions - there are so many of them, but 90% of all combat-extensions are upgrades, not sidegrades. combine that with fixed-role robots with way to many equip-decision factors (CPU/Reactor + slot types + accumulator + specific bonuses) and you get pure vertical progression.

balance is a foreign word in perp, simply because the basic rule is not considered: KISS - keep it stupid simple.
-> ask someone how much damage his weapon does. 99% cannot really answer that question.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Well it was a roundtable about Beta soooooo big_smile

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Annihilator wrote:

Progression is vertical, because the game is developed as "themepark" game, and most player suggestions i see, support that development. Just look at Jitas "Conference" - most talk was about the themepark area "Beta".

Extensions - there are so many of them, but 90% of all combat-extensions are upgrades, not sidegrades. combine that with fixed-role robots with way to many equip-decision factors (CPU/Reactor + slot types + accumulator + specific bonuses) and you get pure vertical progression.

balance is a foreign word in perp, simply because the basic rule is not considered: KISS - keep it stupid simple.
-> ask someone how much damage his weapon does. 99% cannot really answer that question.

Its "Keep it Simple, Stupid".

A few thoughts on your post, as it can be misleading.
Your annalsis of what beta is, far from the picture at all.  You imply that beta is more pay to win, rather its the opposite.

Further more, the idea of PVP becoming a pure vertical progression is correct.  This is due to the simple min, max mentality that comes with all games of this type.

As for the KiSS mentality, this CAN be take a bit to literally.  You can dumb this game down and remove some of the general ?? about the game.  We could have a system base on a 1 + - 1 Damage.  This GREATLY takes away from the general feel of the game.  Critical, skills and how they play into the general game project this Feel.

I can feel in the Dev team the sense of another rebalance pass will becoming.  Why, The GREAT *** that will be T5.

Zoom if you still read my stuff, you need to make your other TEIR's FULLY useful FIRST, then add in other content LATER.

Example!

T1 - Base ***.
T2 - Great Base Speed (REALLY push it) - *** up Base Ammo Count
T3 - Great Base Range (REALLY push it) - *** up Reload Times (Redo Reload times and UPPPP!!! Them)
T4 - Best Ammo Amount / Energy Usage

Notice how Damage is not in the balancing of ANY of those?  Why, EVERYONE just works backward from base DPS at a set range in all the current builds.  All big fights will fight on max range of any weapon set.

***, I can go on and on and on and on.  But Good base, other ways to skin a Zenith.  Deal with it!

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

You Sir have hit the nail on the head.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

You Sir have hit the nail on the head.

Squarely and very hard I think.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

I agree, though this is much easier to do with modules than robots, where we have a lot more variables. Why haven't we done it to modules yet then? Ask me something simpler, but I intend to look into it.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

I agree, though this is much easier to do with modules than robots, where we have a lot more variables. Why haven't we done it to modules yet then? Ask me something simpler, but I intend to look into it.

Its really not that hard with robots either. Think Skirmish, Assault and standard and you've got a good starting point.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

I agree, though this is much easier to do with modules than robots, where we have a lot more variables. Why haven't we done it to modules yet then? Ask me something simpler, but I intend to look into it.

Some vertical progression is good.  It's rewarding for vertical progression to be able to take and get a random T2 ~T4 drop and be able to use it!  It makes players feel like they are accomplishing something.

TBH:  I always felt like your T1 and T2 items were ok, but your T3 was... well something lacking.

What would be cool is if T2 had the best fitting skills(better than they are now!) and T3 was the lightest and T4 was the best but most heaviest.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

I agree, though this is much easier to do with modules than robots, where we have a lot more variables. Why haven't we done it to modules yet then? Ask me something simpler, but I intend to look into it.

Oh *** off, HE GETS THE credit, FOR AGREEING.

... ... ...

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

I agree, though this is much easier to do with modules than robots, where we have a lot more variables. Why haven't we done it to modules yet then? Ask me something simpler, but I intend to look into it.

Some vertical progression is good.  It's rewarding for vertical progression to be able to take and get a random T2 ~T4 drop and be able to use it!  It makes players feel like they are accomplishing something.

TBH:  I always felt like your T1 and T2 items were ok, but your T3 was... well something lacking.

What would be cool is if T2 had the best fitting skills(better than they are now!) and T3 was the lightest and T4 was the best but most heaviest.

Vertical progression is the stupid, easy, simple thing to add in.

Its called damage, its the special snowflake of everything.  More damage, higher Tier WITHIN the Tier.

Vertical progression is so stupid easy, its the horizontal that gets ya.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Summer-Hole Discussion: What would a Perpetuum 2 game look like

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Fully agree that you should make all of the weapon tiers used BEFORE adding anything new. The same with Bots and Mechs. Make the tiers situationally relevant and not iteratively better.

I agree, though this is much easier to do with modules than robots, where we have a lot more variables. Why haven't we done it to modules yet then? Ask me something simpler, but I intend to look into it.

With bots, its a simpler task FOR NOW.  Reason?  Well we have basically two Tiers.  So only two to redo and re-mess up.

You base bots, should be just that base, vanilla Jack of everything.  Then, move into specialization.

Example.

Yagel Class.

Mk1 - Basic Stuff, good at damage fast Ect Ect Simple.

"Mk2 A" - Less Then Basic, Fast, Best Detection (Detector Class DUH!)

"Mk2 B" - Best DPS , Slower, Less Armor resistance.

"Mk2 C" - Best Tank (Active)d, REALLY Slow, Meh Dps When compared to Mk1

See how the slider is BASED off of the Mk1, and the stats slid up or down and move with the specialization.

I am Perpetuum.