1 (edited by Zortarg 2015-07-29 09:21:42)

Topic: About dimishing returns / tuners / damage

first off... dimishing returns is a bad game design and mostly only cuts in another flaw in game design. so we have to get rid of the first flaw in game design...


the problems i see:
- Calculation formula: is way to complex and the boni are stacked in the wrong way(s)
- Tuners: besides the first point. they also have multible stats that benefit each other (especially weapon tunings)



so to the first problem:
make a new reballance of the weapons. including the dmg calculating formula.
make all dmg bonus work the following:
(dmg ammo) + (bonus1(%)/100*dmg ammo) + (bonus2(%)/100*dmg ammo) ... ...
so all you do is adding your bonus you get calculated from the BASE DMG. no multipliers!
if you want boni with more significant effect then simply increase the bonus %.
this way dmg can not scale exponentialy somewhere too high...

same way for ROF. if you increase that with a bonus.. always go from the base ROF of the weapon.

Tunings:
one major problem are the 3 stats on weapon tunings. and all 3 increase the dps. influencing each other and in combination by the way its calculated it increases dps eponentially.

so the solution besides changeing the formula would be to change it to one stat:
- firearms: + ROF (autocannos are all about getting more bullets on the target)
- em guns: +DMG (EM is all about more dmg. boosting the magnetic field for more power also sounds resonable)
- laser: +Crit (yellows are all about crit...)
- missile: + ROF (a missile warhead dont does more dmg... but boosting ROF on a missile launcher sounds resonable) (wanted to go with range, but that would be just another range extender...)


make all weapons T1 with no Bonuses! no +%dmg ...
can give bonuses with increasing tech lvl.

Ballancing:
for all that you have to get your board together and see what dps you want to achieve at max. taking skills, slots, and ammo into consideration.

- but that in a spreadsheet.
- adjust boni from skills
- adjust base ammo dmg ( for example em guns have standart dmg boni. remove that and put it directly on the ammo.[of cource for SR weapons there has to be a bonus. but that also should be calculated to the ammo]. i would not make a difference in ROF between SR and LR weapons... but thats another story)


what you have now:
- a more simple system where everyone can easy see how his bonuses are affecting his dmg/dps.
- no more problems with exponential increasing stats
- more diversified weapon types.
- future proof if more boni might arrive in the future.

not too hard to do and ballance.

win win.

2 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2015-07-29 14:31:31)

Re: About dimishing returns / tuners / damage

EVE survives just fine with stacking penalties on certain modules. Infact given the limited number of slots mechs in Perpetuum have I cant see why (with re balancing of some modules) having stacking penalties could allow for greater fitting variety.

Would be interested to know what Lemon & peanut think on this subject.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: About dimishing returns / tuners / damage

Zortarg wrote:

Zortag Post
win win.

I tried to follow this as best I could Zort, can you confirm if my summary points are correct below.



You want to see the games mechanics simplified in a easier format while also re-balancing the current extremes and left out modules.

You believe diminishing returns are a bad mechanic to use here and that a proper review of current equations and simplifying them for users and developers alike to use to achieve the "ideal" balance.


I have been getting myself brought up to speed with the current meta and fits within the new balance and will have more to add after i get more hands on but want to confirm if i am following your logic.



Some of my notes are that I am currently seeing a longer duration fights, a lack of variety in fittings and even less color disparity in groups or top bots used.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: About dimishing returns / tuners / damage

I agree with damage multipliers are placed in the wrong place, and wrong way
i do not agree with "dimishing returns" beeing a bad mechanic.

one thing that your post is missing: Info screens are not really informative.
for example, a few month when Ville was trying to explain zoom how bad a trojar shield tank is for gameplay, i have asked him "how much damage does your weapon"... He answered something around 400%. Which was not the thing i was asking for.

also, this question is still un-answered, which was also regarding this issue:
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … ne-limits/

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: About dimishing returns / tuners / damage

Zortarg wrote:

Tunings:
one major problem are the 3 stats on weapon tunings. and all 3 increase the dps. influencing each other and in combination by the way its calculated it increases dps eponentially.

so the solution besides changeing the formula would be to change it to one stat:
- firearms: + ROF (autocannos are all about getting more bullets on the target)
- em guns: +DMG (EM is all about more dmg. boosting the magnetic field for more power also sounds resonable)
- laser: +Crit (yellows are all about crit...)
- missile: + ROF (a missile warhead dont does more dmg... but boosting ROF on a missile launcher sounds resonable) (wanted to go with range, but that would be just another range extender...)


make all weapons T1 with no Bonuses! no +%dmg ...
can give bonuses with increasing tech lvl.

These solutions would give out more specific roles for each bot color, yet simplify on the PVP.

One concern, the bonus need to be high enough to incentivize users to use the tuners in the first place, yet not need a full rack of them.

I think this is on the correct direction of balance, and simplification.

One major draw back, then entire system would have to be reworked in-order to make this viable.

The Gifter
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