126

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

I have a series of questions I'd like to ask Avatar Creations in a whole:

What do you see for your Beta Islands?

1.  Alliance Held property where large groups of individuals hold faction specific islands?

2.  Smaller Alliances independently holding each island one in it's own?

3.  Entities on a Corporation level holding different terminals on the same island?

Before we continue this discussion it would be wise to figure out which the "developers" have in mind for owning Beta because there is specific things that have to be reworked for each of those scenarios to be true.

This is true.

I personally would like to see the space an opportunity for all three. Wouldn't you?

I would like to be able to eat what I like and not be a fat bastard but.... it doesn't work that way.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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127 (edited by Burial 2015-07-21 17:20:50)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Good question. I personally prefer 3, primarily because more moving parts generate more content between each other and it's easier for new corporations to pick things up when one part fails. I know it's only a dream, alliances are bound to happen, and it's completely fine as long as they aren't the only viable option.

128

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ville wrote:
Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

I have a series of questions I'd like to ask Avatar Creations in a whole:

What do you see for your Beta Islands?

1.  Alliance Held property where large groups of individuals hold faction specific islands?

2.  Smaller Alliances independently holding each island one in it's own?

3.  Entities on a Corporation level holding different terminals on the same island?

Before we continue this discussion it would be wise to figure out which the "developers" have in mind for owning Beta because there is specific things that have to be reworked for each of those scenarios to be true.

This is true.

I personally would like to see the space an opportunity for all three. Wouldn't you?

I would like to be able to eat what I like and not be a fat bastard but.... it doesn't work that way.

Me and you both Ville big_smile

I think it is possible with different island types to cater to different playstyles. Beta 1 for your third and second point, beta 2 for your second and first, and gamma for your first.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

I also have #3 in my mind.

130 (edited by Lemon 2015-07-21 17:38:38)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Annihilator wrote:
Lemon wrote:

THERE IS NO REASON TO BE AT RISK CURRENTLY on beta and unlocking stations doesn't change that, the only ones who do risk it are the uninformed, thus they are punished.


really, i want to see anyone who says that, running around beta during peak activity time, starting with max 10M nic and a 1 month old account.

oh, and doing anything else then ninja epri mining with an argano or artefacting.
please proof that you have zero risk when you are just "informed" how things work, and without access to proximity probes aside of the ones you can afford, or multiple alt accounts...

Anni, I dont think you grasped what I was trying to say but I will answer your question.

My statement says there is no reason to be 'At Risk'  on beta. Meaning you will not see me or other EXPERIENCED players  deploy our fleet of accounts or deploy with  players/account to beta for economic gain.

There are a number of things I can do on Alpha or Gamma with almost no risk for a far greater return of nic/assets to me for my time.

When I do go to beta, To hunt , it is with multiple bots and I dont 'risk' them until there is a valid reason. I will scout with a scout and find my prey. I will then herd them into  a kill box and drop my REAL fleet on them.

If my Fleeet is on beta, I will always have a plan to get away with out being wiped, this is not always the case. However Anni, you, I and everyone else knows there is a large portion of veteran players who can and do operate in this method.

New players do not know of all the veteran tricks and in order for them to prosper they must risk far more than I.

Your 1 month old 10 mil player does not know that I have a speed fit bots that out range, out tank, and out damage them.

I ON MY OWN have gone against superior numbers numerous times, only leveraging my knowledge of the game to exploit my wins and bring devastating results to my opponents be it moral or asset loss.

Quite frankly IF and WHEN i do go to beta it will be for targets (multiple targets not one ninja miner) worth my time and effort, one that will require a amount of planning in order to dissect them and their corporation piece by piece.

The issue is not one player but when a group of players try to push out to beta, it is obvious when it occurs and they are, with out proper knowledge, just a victim awaiting their death.

Shall I begin referencing examples such as FOOM, STC on Dom, STC on Norhoop, TOG, the list goes on...

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

131

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

You remove station locks you will find that IF and WHEN a corporation moves into  the station they eventually become a target.  When this happens they will not have the economic ability to combat vets, nor the knowledge, nor the assets.

Their enemy will do station drops of Tank fit HM's, 1 HP Bot Bombs (Mongolia specials) and scouting from the terminal.

Their 'home' is not nothing more than a 50/50 death trap when they approach.

So Why would any player actually stay on beta besides them having access to a MONEY TREE. Because all it is now is a death sentence.

To this DAY the only groups to ever apply pressure to me and make me think about my losses has been M2S's Duping fleet and 62nd with their blood vendetta.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

132

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

That's all very nice lemon bit what's it got to do with the thread?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

133 (edited by Lemon 2015-07-21 17:46:03)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Jita wrote:

That's all very nice lemon bit what's it got to do with the thread?


Once again,

New player or new corps move to beta, they are unlocked and open which 'seems' inviting.

They make that move and take a severe beating and see no feasible or easy means to recover the loss assets. They stop making any progress in the game and move back to alpha.

No one likes moving backwards in a game....

My point is, these assignments need to be freaking crystal clear free money for players and corporations. They need tools to assist in their growth and safety nets need to be in place to prevent them from feeling as it they are starting from scratch with a huge asset grind.

Progression in this game in terms of economy and assets is not easy until you reach a certain threshold. New players cant get there right now and there are no tools to help them

in a magical world there would be enough beta population to prevent abuse by vets such as myself or others from using a handful of accounts to shutdown entire groups of players.  This would require a small swarm of them to stop our movements and setup of these 'harsh' actions.  15+ players could stop me from moving in but if you cant stop that then you are the mercy of the others.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

134

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Lemon wrote:
Jita wrote:

That's all very nice lemon bit what's it got to do with the thread?


Once again,

New player or new corps move to beta, they are unlocked and open which 'seems' inviting.

They make that move and take a severe beating and see no feasible or easy means to recover the loss assets. They stop making any progress in the game and move back to alpha.

No one likes moving backwards in a game....

My point is, these assignments need to be freaking crystal clear free money for players and corporations. They need tools to assist in their growth and safety nets need to be in place to prevent them from feeling as it they are starting from scratch with a huge asset grind.

I agree I think. Your basically saying that beta can be a death trap for the uninitiated and the reward needs to match the risk?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Sooo did anyone bother to check the level5 payouts on the test server? And extrapolate that with the proposed 3-4x beta multipliers?

136

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sooo did anyone bother to check the level5 payouts on the test server? And extrapolate that with the proposed 3-4x beta multipliers?

My math might be hinky but I think a four man squad makes 20m a mission taking about 10 minutes

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

137 (edited by Burial 2015-07-21 18:12:39)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sooo did anyone bother to check the level5 payouts on the test server? And extrapolate that with the proposed 3-4x beta multipliers?

Solo, seemed to be in the 20-30mil/h ballpark, which is fine for Alpha-2. 80-100mil/h should be quite appealing on Betas.

Jita wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Sooo did anyone bother to check the level5 payouts on the test server? And extrapolate that with the proposed 3-4x beta multipliers?

My math might be hinky but I think a four man squad makes 20m a mission taking about 10 minutes

On Betas?

138

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ah, betas, no I was ready in my phone :-)

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

139

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

I also have #3 in my mind.

To make #3 happen you need the following items:
1.  Corporations can only own 1 outpost.
2.  Probes need to be removed completely.
3.  Projection of Power needs to be stopped.(3 items already listed)
4.  No highways on Beta.
5.  Limited teleports.
6.  Mineral fields need to spawn within 3k of each station of every type.
7.  Player corporations need to be able to set intrusion times to pop in their time zones once a 24 hour period. 4 hour window.
8.  Missions need a X10 modifier
9.  If a station owners get protection tokens for saps.
10.  Beta production efficiency need to be higher than gamma.

That's how you get #3 to work.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

140

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Burial wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Sooo did anyone bother to check the level5 payouts on the test server? And extrapolate that with the proposed 3-4x beta multipliers?

Solo, seemed to be in the 20-30mil/h ballpark, which is fine for Alpha-2. 80-100mil/h should be quite appealing on Betas.

Jita wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Sooo did anyone bother to check the level5 payouts on the test server? And extrapolate that with the proposed 3-4x beta multipliers?

My math might be hinky but I think a four man squad makes 20m a mission taking about 10 minutes

On Betas?

I have been out of the grind for a little while but I do see these rough numbers for nic/h seem competitive with my previous experience farming top alpha 2's using 3 accounts.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

141

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

I also have #3 in my mind.

To make #3 happen you need the following items:
1.  Corporations can only own 1 outpost.
2.  Probes need to be removed completely.
3.  Projection of Power needs to be stopped.(3 items already listed)
4.  No highways on Beta.
5.  Limited teleports.
6.  Mineral fields need to spawn within 3k of each station of every type.
7.  Player corporations need to be able to set intrusion times to pop in their time zones once a 24 hour period. 4 hour window.
8.  Missions need a X10 modifier
9.  If a station owners get protection tokens for saps.
10.  Beta production efficiency need to be higher than gamma.

That's how you get #3 to work.

Fully agree tbh. Most of that isn't too far away from development time either. Unlock beta 1 and get working on this please

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

142 (edited by Burial 2015-07-21 21:27:29)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ran some harder tests on the combat assignments.

> The average income per mission seems to be around 1 mil w/o any multipliers.
> Average completion time sits around 5 minutes.
> Maxed out solo T4 Kain MK2 got beat up pretty good on some of the harder assignments. The difficulty is right.

If extensions are maxed and 5-assignment multiplier is active, Alpha-2 roughly gives 30mil/h plus tokens and loot. If level 5's are the same on Beta, a small group of T2 MK1 mechs could do them. Risk a 4 million(?) bot per player and split 100m/h. Heck, it's worth it even in something more decent unless they get wiped once an hour.

143

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

100mil/hour is motivation enough for me to risk something.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ville wrote:

I have a series of questions I'd like to ask Avatar Creations in a whole:

What do you see for your Beta Islands?

1.  Alliance Held property where large groups of individuals hold faction specific islands?

2.  Smaller Alliances independently holding each island one in it's own?

3.  Entities on a Corporation level holding different terminals on the same island?

Before we continue this discussion it would be wise to figure out which the "developers" have in mind for owning Beta because there is specific things that have to be reworked for each of those scenarios to be true.


My vote is for all 3.
Though I understand that would require perhaps more islands. 
I think even if adding this content takes more time but incorporates more playstyles/activity/densities, then it is worth it.

145 (edited by SunnyJester 2015-07-21 22:04:05)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sooo did anyone bother to check the level5 payouts on the test server? And extrapolate that with the proposed 3-4x beta multipliers?

Not just NIC but tokens too...also, would Avatar be willing to:

1) program in a random chance of missions rewards dropping a T4+ item (like a 1-5% random chance from level 5 and higher missions for beta missions?)  This alone could be enough to promote more people being on beta. 
2) could you also program in a random T4+ drop for Observer mobs?  This would give ANOTHER reason for people to farm roaming mobs on beta. 
3) increase the mining increase (for all mined and harvested materials) to 100% for owning a station, this would encourage people to own stations.  YOu could also have a 50% mined amount bonus for anyone NOT owning a station
4) allow station owners to activate all of the bonuses (masking, mining, engineering etc) all at the same time when they own a station.
5) add common kernals to all beta island loot tables over and above the high tech kernals.

Just a few suggestions to increase reward to offset the risk

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

I also have #3 in my mind.

To make #3 happen you need the following items:
1.  Corporations can only own 1 outpost.
2.  Probes need to be removed completely.
3.  Projection of Power needs to be stopped.(3 items already listed)
4.  No highways on Beta.
5.  Limited teleports.
6.  Mineral fields need to spawn within 3k of each station of every type.
7.  Player corporations need to be able to set intrusion times to pop in their time zones once a 24 hour period. 4 hour window.
8.  Missions need a X10 modifier
9.  If a station owners get protection tokens for saps.
10.  Beta production efficiency need to be higher than gamma.

That's how you get #3 to work.

Fully agree tbh. Most of that isn't too far away from development time either. Unlock beta 1 and get working on this please

I agree with all but #1.  All #1 does is encourage multi corp alliances like 133/77/PHM/CIR etc or creation of shell corporations.

147

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

SunnyJester wrote:
Jita wrote:
Ville wrote:

To make #3 happen you need the following items:
1.  Corporations can only own 1 outpost.
2.  Probes need to be removed completely.
3.  Projection of Power needs to be stopped.(3 items already listed)
4.  No highways on Beta.
5.  Limited teleports.
6.  Mineral fields need to spawn within 3k of each station of every type.
7.  Player corporations need to be able to set intrusion times to pop in their time zones once a 24 hour period. 4 hour window.
8.  Missions need a X10 modifier
9.  If a station owners get protection tokens for saps.
10.  Beta production efficiency need to be higher than gamma.

That's how you get #3 to work.

Fully agree tbh. Most of that isn't too far away from development time either. Unlock beta 1 and get working on this please

I agree with all but #1.  All #1 does is encourage multi corp alliances like 133/77/PHM/CIR etc or creation of shell corporations.

yeah that was my thought to with shell corporations but tbh its not a bad idea having the mechanic anyway, some restriction is better than no restriction imo

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Also, keep in mind, the more delicious you make Beta, less less attractive Gamma becomes.  Gamma already is a ghost town, so some increntive needs to be placed there to as there is a risk too.  Albeit, the reward should not be as high as Beta as Beta risk is definitely higher than Gamma risk.  If you make Beta industry higher than gamma then WTF is the point of being in gamma.  Make station industry on Beta coincide with the station stability (add a multiplier so if you are at 50% you get a 50% bonus, 100% is 100% bonus).  This would make the max beta industry amount 250, which is 2/3 of a t3 gamma station (which should be higher based on all the work required to make and get it).  You could make a little larger multiplier for beta 2's and you can give a larger multiplier IF a corporation CHOOSES to unlock the station.  You could also increase the other station bonuses if the station is unlocked by the owner.

Just more ideas.....just do something, it is your game Avatar, just choose something and go with it and sort out the issues later if any arise.

149

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

So..  I just had this crazy thought since we are onto missions now, what happens when everything turns into roaming mobs and your trying to do a L5 combat and roaming mobs roll up on you?

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

150

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

SunnyJester wrote:

Also, keep in mind, the more delicious you make Beta, less less attractive Gamma becomes.  Gamma already is a ghost town, so some increntive needs to be placed there to as there is a risk too.  Albeit, the reward should not be as high as Beta as Beta risk is definitely higher than Gamma risk.  If you make Beta industry higher than gamma then WTF is the point of being in gamma.  Make station industry on Beta coincide with the station stability (add a multiplier so if you are at 50% you get a 50% bonus, 100% is 100% bonus).  This would make the max beta industry amount 250, which is 2/3 of a t3 gamma station (which should be higher based on all the work required to make and get it).  You could make a little larger multiplier for beta 2's and you can give a larger multiplier IF a corporation CHOOSES to unlock the station.  You could also increase the other station bonuses if the station is unlocked by the owner.

Just more ideas.....just do something, it is your game Avatar, just choose something and go with it and sort out the issues later if any arise.

tbh Gamma will be fixed when turrets shoot NPC, GOD DO I HATE ROAMING NPCS!!

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.