Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ville: that's why we're not doing this for all beta outposts, so everyone can have their own preferred way of living on beta.

But just to throw in a completely different idea that you can all fight over (and I'm doing myself a disservice here): we could also put in a public main terminal on beta2s.

Dev Zoom, like 95% of your beta population lives on Beta 1 Islands, it would be better for this to happen on Beta 2s, although I am against it 100%.

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Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

"Auto generate" an island means only the terrain, which most of the time needs a lot of manual terraforming to make all of its areas accessible and useful.

Since you would want to do missions there too, that means doing the same process that we do now with all the islands, just with more effort because compared to existing islands, there would be zero infrastructure or pathways which would need to be created too.

Putting a new station onto an existing island is way less effort. I'm talking about a few days versus 1-2 months here.

53 (edited by Burial 2015-07-21 00:10:32)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

More lockable Betas is just more unused&empty locked Betas with same issues.

Unlock either Beta 1's or 2's, see how that goes and then add additional space if the population grows. There's completely no point adding more Betas with 20-30 sitting in GC and most of the Betas empty.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

"Auto generate" an island means only the terrain, which most of the time needs a lot of manual terraforming to make all of its areas accessible and useful.

Since you would want to do missions there too, that means doing the same process that we do now with all the islands, just with more effort because compared to existing islands, there would be zero infrastructure or pathways which would need to be created too.

Putting a new station onto an existing island is way less effort. I'm talking about a few days versus 1-2 months here.

I have a real question, Could you auto generate an island(gamma) on the Test server, give us back terraforming mechanics that aren't terrible  and allow the community to work on building an island?  For Beta, like we do all the heavy lifting on the side.  And make the terraforming plans tradable to non corp members, and create a sub forums for players to discussion the plans and direction of it in a highly moderated environment??  Is that possible?  So all you would have to do is come in plop teleports and do some simple adjustments bearing in mind it is ALL roaming NPCs, and you do the fine touch ups, and release the islands one at a time?

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Putting a new station onto an existing island is way less effort. I'm talking about a few days versus 1-2 months here.

Out of everything suggested this would have the least amount of impact on your current beta players.

+1 to this idea.

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

I'd like to emphasize again that I'm not convinced either way about the effects and benefits of open or closed beta outposts, but this topic has made me realise that beta2s are most of the time completely shut off from the world. And if they are really underused, it's even worse to think that we have entire islands "wasted" as a playground for a few privileged ones.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Well basically any solution that gives beta access to people without fighting the blob is good provided that they can't be camped in.

Thats why Beta 1's were suggested, its kinda hard to have an alt with enough firepower to back it up in 12 different locations. If its another 3 stations i'm not sure your gonna get enough benefit there. If your talking opening beta 2 AND adding an NPC station then i would say awesome idea. Do it now!

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'd like to emphasize again that I'm not convinced either way about the effects and benefits of open or closed beta outposts, but this topic has made me realise that beta2s are most of the time completely shut off from the world. And if they are really underused, it's even worse to think that we have entire islands "wasted" as a playground for a few privileged ones.

The people ninja mining epriton would disagree with you.  But it's very simple why islands are wasted:

1.  Power Projection (this is tri fold now)
  A.  Spark teleports.
  B.  Speed increase.
  C.  Teleport Beacons.

1A.  If you can spark around every island and get pvp or put pressure on everyone then the problem lies in the mechanic that allows you to be everywhere at a blink of an eye.
1B.  Plate | Frame Heavies move way to fast.  A plated heavy with a frame can move at 80/90 kph makes it extremely easy to navigate between islands.  Meaning even if I walked my *** over there I can make it in good time.
1B.1  This allows heavies to be able to be fielded in almost every fight because they have high maneuverability  which means they can keep up with other classes(obviously not light ewar)  but a mech group no problem.  Add velocity to the group and you can even have heavies catching assault groups.
1C  Teleport beacons are too cheap now.  Since you are already changing the teleport network it might be wise and time to up the cost of mobile teleports back up, as cheaping Teleports was a bandaid fix for moving islands around and relocating minerals to other islands.

^  If you fixed these problems here, you don't have to worry about unlocked/locked stations.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ville wrote:

I have a real question, Could you auto generate an island(gamma) on the Test server, give us back terraforming mechanics that aren't terrible  and allow the community to work on building an island?  For Beta, like we do all the heavy lifting on the side.  And make the terraforming plans tradable to non corp members, and create a sub forums for players to discussion the plans and direction of it in a highly moderated environment??  Is that possible?  So all you would have to do is come in plop teleports and do some simple adjustments bearing in mind it is ALL roaming NPCs, and you do the fine touch ups, and release the islands one at a time?

It's not impossible, and I generally like the idea of "crowdsourcing" the creation of islands. No terraforming plan screwing around though, we'd have to put in the developer terraforming tools into the test client, which I'd have to ask whether it's possible cause I don't know. (Because giving out developer clients is something we're quite hesitant about, even though everything is controlled by account access levels.)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

I have a real question, Could you auto generate an island(gamma) on the Test server, give us back terraforming mechanics that aren't terrible  and allow the community to work on building an island?  For Beta, like we do all the heavy lifting on the side.  And make the terraforming plans tradable to non corp members, and create a sub forums for players to discussion the plans and direction of it in a highly moderated environment??  Is that possible?  So all you would have to do is come in plop teleports and do some simple adjustments bearing in mind it is ALL roaming NPCs, and you do the fine touch ups, and release the islands one at a time?

It's not impossible, and I generally like the idea of "crowdsourcing" the creation of islands. No terraforming plan screwing around though, we'd have to put in the developer terraforming tools into the test client, which I'd have to ask whether it's possible cause I don't know. (Because giving out developer clients is something we're quite hesitant about, even though everything is controlled by account access levels.)

I would be ok even if you installed a monitoring program into my computer that looked for fishy stuff going on, and make players interested in the project have to "sign up" for it and even attend weekly meetings on Saturday/Sunday to talk about development of the islands and what we have possible, what about the OLD terraforming mechanics?  You didn't completely abandon that stuff did you?

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ville wrote:

1A.  If you can spark around every island and get pvp or put pressure on everyone then the problem lies in the mechanic that allows you to be everywhere at a blink of an eye.
1B.  Plate | Frame Heavies move way to fast.  A plated heavy with a frame can move at 80/90 kph makes it extremely easy to navigate between islands.  Meaning even if I walked my *** over there I can make it in good time.
1B.1  This allows heavies to be able to be fielded in almost every fight because they have high maneuverability  which means they can keep up with other classes(obviously not light ewar)  but a mech group no problem.  Add velocity to the group and you can even have heavies catching assault groups.
1C  Teleport beacons are too cheap now.  Since you are already changing the teleport network it might be wise and time to up the cost of mobile teleports back up, as cheaping Teleports was a bandaid fix for moving islands around and relocating minerals to other islands.

^  If you fixed these problems here, you don't have to worry about unlocked/locked stations.

I'm not sure whether teleport beacons would be useful at all after all the island revamps are done (with the exception of interzones), but your other points will be looked into soon. Or well, you know about the spark teleport removal already, but I also think that heavies are too fast. But that's off topic here.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

how close are we to an industry fix to beta?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ville wrote:

what about the OLD terraforming mechanics?  You didn't completely abandon that stuff did you?

You don't want that, really. I mean it's a lot of effort even with the dev terrain painting tools where you have realtime feedback and you can really sculpt the terrain, but effing around with plans and beacons and charges and cycle times where all those don't count is just like masturbating with a cheese grinder.

64 (edited by Burial 2015-07-20 21:36:33)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Ville wrote:

1A.  If you can spark around every island and get pvp or put pressure on everyone then the problem lies in the mechanic that allows you to be everywhere at a blink of an eye.
1B.  Plate | Frame Heavies move way to fast.  A plated heavy with a frame can move at 80/90 kph makes it extremely easy to navigate between islands.  Meaning even if I walked my *** over there I can make it in good time.
1B.1  This allows heavies to be able to be fielded in almost every fight because they have high maneuverability  which means they can keep up with other classes(obviously not light ewar)  but a mech group no problem.  Add velocity to the group and you can even have heavies catching assault groups.
1C  Teleport beacons are too cheap now.  Since you are already changing the teleport network it might be wise and time to up the cost of mobile teleports back up, as cheaping Teleports was a bandaid fix for moving islands around and relocating minerals to other islands.

- I completely agree with the Heavy part. Heavies shouldn't work as roaming bots.
- Agreed on the teleport part aswell.

Good post.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Burial wrote:
Ville wrote:
Ville wrote:

The people ninja mining epriton would disagree with you.  But it's very simple why islands are wasted:

1.  Power Projection (this is tri fold now)
  A.  Spark teleports.
  B.  Speed increase.
  C.  Teleport Beacons.

1A.  If you can spark around every island and get pvp or put pressure on everyone then the problem lies in the mechanic that allows you to be everywhere at a blink of an eye.
1B.  Plate | Frame Heavies move way to fast.  A plated heavy with a frame can move at 80/90 kph makes it extremely easy to navigate between islands.  Meaning even if I walked my *** over there I can make it in good time.
1B.1  This allows heavies to be able to be fielded in almost every fight because they have high maneuverability  which means they can keep up with other classes(obviously not light ewar)  but a mech group no problem.  Add velocity to the group and you can even have heavies catching assault groups.
1C  Teleport beacons are too cheap now.  Since you are already changing the teleport network it might be wise and time to up the cost of mobile teleports back up, as cheaping Teleports was a bandaid fix for moving islands around and relocating minerals to other islands.

^  If you fixed these problems here, you don't have to worry about unlocked/locked stations.

- I completely agree with the Heavy part. Heavies shouldn't work as roaming bots.
- Agreed on the teleport part aswell.

Good post.

thanks

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

So which island and whats the timetable? wink

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Honestly this is a bit of bad timing because I have my hands full with bringing you a long "what's next" devblog (while preparing beta reworks).

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly this is a bit of bad timing because I have my hands full with bringing you a long "what's next" devblog (while preparing beta reworks).

Well no super rush. 1st of September doable?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Jita wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly this is a bit of bad timing because I have my hands full with bringing you a long "what's next" devblog (while preparing beta reworks).

Well no super rush. 1st of September doable?

If we're talking about beta2s then that's probably the time when the rework will go live too, so I guess yeah. And we have still time to fight about which option we should choose, open beta2 or add a terminal. (If we do the latter I don't think we should do the former.)

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly this is a bit of bad timing because I have my hands full with bringing you a long "what's next" devblog (while preparing beta reworks).

Well no super rush. 1st of September doable?

If we're talking about beta2s then that's probably the time when the rework will go live too, so I guess yeah. And we have still time to fight about which option we should choose, open beta2 or add a terminal. (If we do the latter I don't think we should do the former.)

Can you add two terminals to beta 2?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

Jita wrote:

Can you add two terminals to beta 2?

It'll probably not be easy to find a proper place for even one, but why?

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Can you add two terminals to beta 2?

It'll probably not be easy to find a proper place for even one, but why?

Well the whole point of opening stations is that you need enough of them to spread out the alts and gankers. Thats why you can't live in the three beta 2's now - they are all camped or scouted with logged off shizzle. The point of having beta 1 open was you turn three ganking locations in to 12. This forces people to make a choice about where they put their alts even if its possible still to have scouts everywhere.

All adding three more outposts would do is make it a little harder. Considering your gonna probably have friendlies on one, your in another that leaves four possibles. Much easier to be ready for.

Now there are people who can be ready in twelve locations too but thats 10% of the population and not 60%.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

I'll see how it all fits together when we'll be doing beta2s.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

This topic has become too important to stay in CD, moved.

Re: A prediction (about outpost locking)

DEV Zoom wrote:

This topic has become too important to stay in CD, moved.

Feel free to delete the story mode and replace the first post with details of what the options are.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."