Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Perpetuum wrote:

Altera.

Whats your favorite Color?

blue..and I like long walks and sunsets.
my turn-offs are rude people and traffic.

27 (edited by Burial 2015-07-12 10:55:29)

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Altera wrote:

Why do you think this is so?  lazy players/Alliances who want easy mode, will still not play even with open terminals (just like the open terminals we already have that are not used)

Issue isn't we're lazy or want easy mode. Issue is even the best outcome is going to be boring as ***, so why bother. Your alliance has all the land you could possibly need and then some, but how many players from your side are actually playing?

Two sided solution has and will keep boring people out of the game. When one side doesn't want to fight, there's no-one to fight.

'Everyone is just lazy' will be the epitaph on Perpetuum's tomb.

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

why would i want to build in PvP space?

on alpha, i need to gather/haul exactly 1 ore from dangerous space to save space, and get everythign within save-space.
on beta, i need to gather/haul all materials in dagerous space, and import at least two materials from other islands.

just to build and equip my bots, i need tech from all colors, because someones spreadsheet balance...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Using considerably less materials should be the carrot.

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Annihilator wrote:

why would i want to build in PvP space?

on alpha, i need to gather/haul exactly 1 ore from dangerous space to save space, and get everythign within save-space.
on beta, i need to gather/haul all materials in dagerous space, and import at least two materials from other islands.

just to build and equip my bots, i need tech from all colors, because someones spreadsheet balance...

Well that's the problem, it shouldn't be that way. Big red spawns of everything in fixed locations gives better industry opportunity. A beta should provide everything you need within 2k of a station. Your carrot to owning it should be return of tax and getting to choose your industry points.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Burial wrote:

Using considerably less materials should be the carrot.

its a carrot on a to short stick.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Jita wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

why would i want to build in PvP space?

on alpha, i need to gather/haul exactly 1 ore from dangerous space to save space, and get everythign within save-space.
on beta, i need to gather/haul all materials in dagerous space, and import at least two materials from other islands.

just to build and equip my bots, i need tech from all colors, because someones spreadsheet balance...

Well that's the problem, it shouldn't be that way. Big red spawns of everything in fixed locations gives better industry opportunity. A beta should provide everything you need within 2k of a station. Your carrot to owning it should be return of tax and getting to choose your industry points.

yes

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Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Ville wrote:
Jita wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

why would i want to build in PvP space?

on alpha, i need to gather/haul exactly 1 ore from dangerous space to save space, and get everythign within save-space.
on beta, i need to gather/haul all materials in dagerous space, and import at least two materials from other islands.

just to build and equip my bots, i need tech from all colors, because someones spreadsheet balance...

Well that's the problem, it shouldn't be that way. Big red spawns of everything in fixed locations gives better industry opportunity. A beta should provide everything you need within 2k of a station. Your carrot to owning it should be return of tax and getting to choose your industry points.

yes

The fish are flip flopping all over the place on this one.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

I think we need to be more radical in our thinking to balance this one.

Something along the lines of introducing different factory lines for different tech levels would help balance more than just industry.

Alpha's only have T1 and T2 factory lines.
NPC Betas have T1, T2 and T3
Player owned Betas have T3 and T4 only (no T1 and T2)
No T4 on Gamma until Advanced Factory.

I'm also think we should think about not having infinite factory lines and introduce some sort of queuing system for a limited number of public factory lines* and have a separate set of factory lines for a Corp. to rent for 30 days at a time.

* similar to a space based MMO I've heard about. That MMO has many many more facilities game-wide, though, so not exactly the same.

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

I think we need to be more radical in our thinking to balance this one.

Something along the lines of introducing different factory lines for different tech levels would help balance more than just industry.

Alpha's only have T1 and T2 factory lines.
NPC Betas have T1, T2 and T3
Player owned Betas have T3 and T4 only (no T1 and T2)
No T4 on Gamma until Advanced Factory.

I'm also think we should think about not having infinite factory lines and introduce some sort of queuing system for a limited number of public factory lines* and have a separate set of factory lines for a Corp. to rent for 30 days at a time.

* similar to a space based MMO I've heard about. That MMO has many many more facilities game-wide, though, so not exactly the same.

That is a radical concept indeed!

This would change the dynamic of the game like no other change currently proposed.  Unfortunately, it would buck the status-quo too much to be palatable for most players.

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

i would do it slightly different:

  1. Faction equip has highest production efficiency on the corresponding island.
    Oppositte faction tech has negative bonus, multiplied by the tier.

  2. Alpha Terminals are best for T1

  3. Alpha Outposts are best for T1 and T2

  4. Beta Terminals and Outposts are best for T3

  5. Beta Outposts can be tuned to be best for T4 (stability points)

  6. Gamma Facilities Tier defines what they are best for. Booster buildings seperated into faction booster.

the differences should be noticeable, but you CAN produce everything everywhere.
Building a T4 Gauss in a Green Alpha station would be the worst efficiency.

thats more radical, with a bit more flexibility then Ludlows' suggestion.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

I think we need to be more radical in our thinking to balance this one.

Something along the lines of introducing different factory lines for different tech levels would help balance more than just industry.

Alpha's only have T1 and T2 factory lines.
NPC Betas have T1, T2 and T3
Player owned Betas have T3 and T4 only (no T1 and T2)
No T4 on Gamma until Advanced Factory.

I'm also think we should think about not having infinite factory lines and introduce some sort of queuing system for a limited number of public factory lines* and have a separate set of factory lines for a Corp. to rent for 30 days at a time.

* similar to a space based MMO I've heard about. That MMO has many many more facilities game-wide, though, so not exactly the same.

This sounds good, on paper.

However, a cartel or sorts COULD be formed with this, with price fixing ect.

But still should be looked into.  I do like.

I am Perpetuum.

38 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2015-07-14 09:34:36)

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Annihilator wrote:

i would do it slightly different:

  1. Faction equip has highest production efficiency on the corresponding island.
    Oppositte faction tech has negative bonus, multiplied by the tier.

  2. Alpha Terminals are best for T1

  3. Alpha Outposts are best for T1 and T2

  4. Beta Terminals and Outposts are best for T3

  5. Beta Outposts can be tuned to be best for T4 (stability points)

  6. Gamma Facilities Tier defines what they are best for. Booster buildings seperated into faction booster.

the differences should be noticeable, but you CAN produce everything everywhere.
Building a T4 Gauss in a Green Alpha station would be the worst efficiency.

thats more radical, with a bit more flexibility then Ludlows' suggestion.

Yep, some good variations suggested there. Production bonuses/penalties for different tech levels on factory lines is a neat way of doing it but as you say the differences must be really noticeable.

Unfortunately with the abundance of raw materials and shape of the production efficiency curve (too steep for the first couple of hundred industry points imo*) means that once you get your relevant extensions up to 8 industry point bonuses impact are limited. That's something else that needs balancing.

* EDIT and too shallow at the high end. I've always thought that. (Really old post). Curve shape doesn't leave enough scope to provide incentives to fight for industry points.

39 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2015-07-14 11:07:18)

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Following on from my last post I have a suggested new formula format that would allow more flexibility to provide incentives. There is also an image of a spreadsheet to copy should you like to tweak it and find what you think suits:

w = base value: the value below which efficiency cannot fall.
x = multiplier: determines the efficiency level at industry points zero when added to w.
y = diminish rate: one minus the % drop in efficiency for each increase in set number of industry points (z)
z = point threshold: see y
p = points

w + (x* (y^ (p/z) ) )

For something like Anni suggested how about w = 0.9, x = 1.1, y = 0.5, z=200

With these numbers materials required at 0 points are 2*base and hit 1.5*base at about 150 points (scope here to make a real difference between alpha/beta and factions). Current max achievable efficiency at Beta is achieved at around 400-450 points and current max achievable efficiency at a whizz-bang gamma facility at about 550-600 points. 100% efficiency comes at 700 points but if you push it to 900 points and beyond you can get 105% and beyond.

The beauty of using exponentials is that the shape of the curve is really easily tweakable. I have no idea why Avatar didn't use exponentials in the first place.

Spreadsheet Formula Image

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

We need to just lock Ludlow and Anni in a room and keep them their until they come up with a good system.

These guys are on to something great.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Jesus Christ, it doesn't have to be this hard.  Low alpha 2 facilities, buff the *** out of beta terminals, gamma is fine.

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Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

The beauty of using exponentials is that the shape of the curve is really easily tweakable. I have no idea why Avatar didn't use exponentials in the first place.

because complex rational funktions are more fun, and the code was already ingame for resist calculation wink

Ville wrote:

Jesus Christ, it doesn't have to be this hard.  Low alpha 2 facilities, buff the *** out of beta terminals, gamma is fine.

it does. and if implemented, you don't really have to care about the math behind it.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

43 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2015-07-15 16:06:39)

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Annihilator wrote:

... and the code was already ingame for resist calculation wink

1- (1/((Points/100)+1)) = armour resist %

You mean this one?

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

a soap bubble. change yourself first and then the game

Just @ Game

Re: Production bonuses: Alpha vs Beta

Ville wrote:

Jesus Christ, it doesn't have to be this hard.  Low alpha 2 facilities, buff the *** out of beta terminals, gamma is fine.

Let the grown-up's make the system.

I am Perpetuum.