1,401

Re: Spark Teleports

Illiathos wrote:
Jita wrote:
Illiathos wrote:

Station locks secure beta islands so people assaulting gamma need to cross alpha. It also rewards the corp owning stations with easier saps.

None of those reasons are about living on beta. People living on beta creates PvP. People living on gamma and alpha doesn't. Simple as that.

I'm saying that 1 unlocked station per beta faction is enough for you to live on beta. The other stations are just an incentive.

Denial of content as a method of getting PvP is *** gameplay. Beta 1 needs unlocking with beta 2 able to be locked.

1,402

Re: Spark Teleports

It's a waste of content creating real-estate if out of 18 stations, 15 can be locked down by 1-3 factions that ain't even going to use them. Bottom line is it's going to shrink the target pool for everyone.

Illiathos wrote:

..
Station locks secure beta islands so people assaulting gamma need to cross alpha. It also rewards the corp owning stations with easier saps.

Can't interzone from a Beta station to Gamma anymore and even when you could, sieges always started either with a turreted base on the same or neighboring island or Alpha. Locked Betas made little difference then and even less now.

1,403

Re: Spark Teleports

Tonnik wrote:

Denial of content as a method of getting PvP is *** gameplay. Beta 1 needs unlocking with beta 2 able to be locked.

That's actually pretty nice middle ground. Beta 1 stations about collecting tax from the residents and Beta 2 stations about being able to lock them.

1,404

Re: Spark Teleports

Many people are considering coming back full active, when this change goes through because it changes the whole dynamic of the game, players smart enough know this.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Spark Teleports

Tonnik wrote:
Illiathos wrote:
Jita wrote:

None of those reasons are about living on beta. People living on beta creates PvP. People living on gamma and alpha doesn't. Simple as that.

I'm saying that 1 unlocked station per beta faction is enough for you to live on beta. The other stations are just an incentive.

Denial of content as a method of getting PvP is *** gameplay. Beta 1 needs unlocking with beta 2 able to be locked.

That is only ok if the only way of getting to gamma would be through beta 2. Because if xiantor is accessible through beta 1, that's just asking for base destruction.

Re: Spark Teleports

maybe you will be "home" when someone rings the doorbell then wink

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Spark Teleports

Annihilator wrote:

maybe you will be "home" when someone rings the doorbell then wink

I know this was meant as a funny reminder of a low game population. But if you guys are truly looking for fair, neutral grounds, then the locked beta and that one only must serve as a gateway to gamma. Because when NSE first assaulted a beta outpost, we already planned it to be a gateway to gamma and that's why we tried so hard. We wasted numerous seths and artemises for owning beta, not for sap loot (CIR always blew us up).

1,408

Re: Spark Teleports

Its not about fair and neutral. Its about the current dynamic forcing two sided warfare as the only way to take a beta or own a gamma is to fight whoever is strongest and win not just one fight but most of them. This dooms emergent gameplay.

The game should foster lots of small entities who can fight each other yet have a place which is lucrative yet risky.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Spark Teleports

Jita wrote:

Its not about fair and neutral. Its about the current dynamic forcing two sided warfare as the only way to take a beta or own a gamma is to fight whoever is strongest and win not just one fight but most of them. This dooms emergent gameplay.

The game should foster lots of small entities who can fight each other yet have a place which is lucrative yet risky.

I think you can do beta with 1 neutral outpost just fine. Anything else is a luxury. One NSE is actively fighting for. And tell me, why do you need all 4 beta outposts to be neutral? Why isnt just one enough?

Re: Spark Teleports

Make it so you can only have 1 beta spark.
Make it so that you have to take the sap or the stability goes down.
Make it so that the SAP always drops loot.

Makes it hard for small or less active groups to hold more than 1 station.
You have to be active to keep it.
Non owners are encouraged to roam, looking for sap loot, or even have a go at an out of the way station...

Re: Spark Teleports

DarkTerror wrote:

Make it so you can only have 1 beta spark.
Make it so that you have to take the sap or the stability goes down.
Make it so that the SAP always drops loot.

Makes it hard for small or less active groups to hold more than 1 station.
You have to be active to keep it.
Non owners are encouraged to roam, looking for sap loot, or even have a go at an out of the way station...

You could have 1 beta spark in green territory and blood spark in red beta territory. The only way locking a corporation to one territory would be to either completely remove sparks (bad) or limit all sparks with bloodspark included to one color faction.

Re: Spark Teleports

Illiathos wrote:
DarkTerror wrote:

Make it so you can only have 1 beta spark.
Make it so that you have to take the sap or the stability goes down.
Make it so that the SAP always drops loot.

Makes it hard for small or less active groups to hold more than 1 station.
You have to be active to keep it.
Non owners are encouraged to roam, looking for sap loot, or even have a go at an out of the way station...

You could have 1 beta spark in green territory and blood spark in red beta territory. The only way locking a corporation to one territory would be to either completely remove sparks (bad) or limit all sparks with bloodspark included to one color faction.


From my other post.

I think up to 3 sparks total is reasonable.
1 Alpha - free (blood spark here)
1 Beta - 5 points
1 Gamma - 10 points
If you can't dock somewhere on Beta/Gamma, you don't get to use it elsewhere,

Re: Spark Teleports

I do like having one 'reserved' spark that can take you back to alpha regardless of your blood spark.  (IE: how do the defeated retreat when all is lost?)

But as many have said, the issue is power projection: the ability of one to defend many distant locations against multiple attacking fronts.
I do understand mobility is an issue, but as Zoom said, the TP and highway system will lessen the travel time but introduce risk!  Risk=>pvp oppurtunities. Popped scarabs=>lost bot/material/equipment=>more demand.
Perhaps its time to admit, things might be too easy for PVP island logistics. 
Perhaps the same number of people required to take and hold one island, does not mean they can immediately spread their influence without weakening their defense in some areas.

I will say on the issue of beta terminals, zoom mentioned plans for new betas with no terminals, and npc terminals.  So in the future, perhaps both sides of this issue will be satisfied by this (potential) new content.

Re: Spark Teleports

I retract my spark idea.

Kill them all, and leave em to F1ck.

I am Perpetuum.

1,415 (edited by Celebro 2015-06-28 18:51:48)

Re: Spark Teleports

Those opposing this change need to read this thread.

Just to give an insight, long ago and before sparks(some but not all players did industry/gathering on beta and not only epriton). They were relatively safe because arkhes were set at TPs to watch out for enemies (only point of entry) . This led to enemy roaming groups taking their time to kill any solo miners/haulers, they did this because they knew players felt safe most of the time, alliances kept watch, but sooner or later keeping watch has it's limits and some crept in looking for kills.


Sparks and other mechanics also at play here, adding like detectors, speed change and lockdowns of OPs. But once sparks came in, it became too easy to defend multiple islands, it also became harder for small roaming groups to get kills, this led to the largest or most active groups to take most of the server at will. The rest grew tired and staged from alpha (beta 1 terminals where always camped with sparks in an out so it was not an ideal place for a home station which it has not been the case in the past).

Since then the power projection took it's toll, beta was unsafe and practically locked down, trolls took control and they had their fun, but once the losing side (always the least active or with less numbers) left. There was little to no pvp and numbers since then has just gone spiraling down.

Some oversimplification but generally true.

RIP PERPETUUM

1,416 (edited by Jita 2015-06-28 18:56:50)

Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro wrote:

Those opposing this change need to read this thread.

Just to give an insight, long ago and before sparks(some but not all players did industry/gathering on beta and not only epriton). They were relatively safe because arkhes were set at TPs to watch out for enemies (only point of entry) . This led to enemy roaming groups taking their time to kill any solo miners/haulers, they did this because they knew players felt safe most of the time, alliances kept watch, but sooner or later keeping watch has it's limits and some crept in looking for kills.


Sparks and other mechanics also at play here, adding like detectors, speed change and lockdowns of OPs. But once sparks came in, it became too easy to defend multiple islands, it also became harder for small roaming groups to get kills, this led to the largest or most active groups to take most of the server at will. The rest grew tired and staged from alpha (beta 1 terminals where always camped with sparks in an out so it was not an ideal place for a home station which it has not been the case in the past).

Some oversimplification but generally true.

Pretty much. A combination of detectors, station lock downs and sparks made the risk much higher. A combination of industry nerf, mining nerf and mission nerf made the reward much lower.
Since then the power projection took it's toll, beta was unsafe and practically locked down, trolls took control and they had their fun, but once the losing side (always the least active or with less numbers) left. There was little to no pvp and numbers since then has just gone spiraling down.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Spark Teleports

just makes you wonder... how did M2S hold those beta islands before SPT ? (answer is bad SAP mechanics)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

1,418

Re: Spark Teleports

Unlocked stations only benefit entities that are

a) Not interested in fighting for it, just leeching when nobody is looking
b) Only interested in trying to grief people who put in the effort to secure their station/island.

Re: Spark Teleports

Naismith wrote:

Unlocked stations only benefit entities that are

a) Not interested in fighting for it, just leeching when nobody is looking
b) Only interested in trying to grief people who put in the effort to secure their station/island.

Basically what i was trying to say the whole time.

Also, did you notice how they failed to give me a reason why 1 free npc outpost wouldnt be enough for the newbie corps? Yes, they couldnt answer. That's because it is enough for newbies.

1,420

Re: Spark Teleports

Never mind the locked outpost, should be ok with those new field terminals on beta smile

RIP PERPETUUM

1,421

Re: Spark Teleports

It should be, but field terminals don't allow them to dock up and logoff when the odds aren't to their liking.

Unlocked stations are very nice for offensive scanning of SAP times too. Why bother with all the logistics and planning when you can just undock, scan, redock.

1,422 (edited by Burial 2015-06-28 22:47:00)

Re: Spark Teleports

Naismith wrote:

a) Not interested in fighting for it, just leeching when nobody is looking

There's nothing bad about that. Essentially it's more content for everyone. I'm not saying to remove all the incentives from having a station, just move it away from locks to tax for example to get more people out there without the shoven down their throat mentality that they need a big alliance to live on Betas.

Naismith wrote:

b) Only interested in trying to grief people who put in the effort to secure their station/island.

1. Spark TPs are getting removed.
2. Home base should be only allowed on Alphas anyway to remove all the hellcamping scenarios having no sparks bring.

Without a way to quickly get back, it's a matter of killing whoever undocks? I'm all for tweaking the timers there.

Re: Spark Teleports

so much spinning around.

travel times get reduced, SPT removed. done.

homebase setting works fine as it is. you can only set it to bases you are allowed to dock, you cannot set it remotely, and  its deleted once your docking rights vanish.

(only a bug of the homebase setting needs to be fixed AFAIK)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

1,424

Re: Spark Teleports

Naismith wrote:

Unlocked stations only benefit entities that are

a) Not interested in fighting for it, just leeching when nobody is looking
b) Only interested in trying to grief people who put in the effort to secure their station/island.

That makes no sense for two reasons. Firstly you can't grief someone who doesn't live there. The only reason betas are owned right now is to stop other people from living there. Second the current meta requires winning set piece battles which means beta is closed off to emergent corps.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

1,425

Re: Spark Teleports

Jita wrote:
Naismith wrote:

Unlocked stations only benefit entities that are

a) Not interested in fighting for it, just leeching when nobody is looking
b) Only interested in trying to grief people who put in the effort to secure their station/island.

That makes no sense for two reasons. Firstly you can't grief someone who doesn't live there. The only reason betas are owned right now is to stop other people from living there. Second the current meta requires winning set piece battles which means beta is closed off to emergent corps.

This again?  Really?  Dude I've already told you in like 5 other threads all this does is encourage ghanking and griefing.  There's enough people with enough accounts to disrupt any corporations trying to live there.

1.  Placing passive eyes in station can see who docks and undocks.
2.  Super tanked bots to detect/ghAnk soft targets coming into station.
3.  Easily placed sap scanners in each station.
4.  Completely disrupt island industry with dock/undocking games.
5.  Effectively use bomb fits to grief new players/corporations trying to use beta.

There's 5 reasons why station locks were implemented in the first place.

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