Topic: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

I want to start off by thanking you for providing clean and clear dialogue and I am asking very kindly we keep Corporation dialogue where it belongs.  Thank you.

There have been a number of changes with balancing and speed and mass in the past 6 months but we haven't seen anything about explosion damage.  I have some questions because I am unclear of a few things. 

What is the ACUTUAL explosion damage calculation equation for radius of explosion and damage done?

Range and DPS were lowered 20% in the rebalancing post, but one of the most destructive weapons in the game remained unchanged: explosion damage.  Why wasn't that lowered?

In honesty I love explosion damage it provides a realistic feel to the game but in this game the penalty is massive!

I want to post some simple pros and cons:

Pros:

Adds a realistic feel to content.
Losers of a fight can still inflict major consequences to the winning forces causing both sides to always lose something in pvp.
Can easily camp gates with certain bomb fits.

Cons:
Losers of a fight can still inflict major consequences to the winning forces causing both sides to always lose something in pvp.
Can easily camp gates with certain bomb fits.
Bringing New players into a fleet fight becomes a liability
Explosion damage can easily change the tide of a fight with one guy exploding in the group
It's not new player friendly
too hardcore for most players.
It Causes snow balling effect.


One huge disadvantage to it is with Logistic Robot pilots(Yes they do exist) you know the guys playing medic in the backgroup throwing out remote armor repairs and energy transfers they have to be within 300 M of you.  These guys soak up damage because they have to be in the back pockets of the people on the front line, so if they are at half shields and someone blows up most likely they are going to end up soaking up huge chunks of damage if not being killed itself.  And when someone goes bomb in the middle of the group, well let's just say we have seen many a chain reactions...

So what's everyone's thoughts?

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

I personally think explosion damage is fine and a great mechanic alongside interference for reducing the blob. The only reason it seems a problem currently is because everyones fits are dumb and based upon 5 man gang thinking and not what it would be in a bigger gang atmosphere.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

3 (edited by Annihilator 2015-03-23 20:28:48)

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Phantomburn wrote:

What is the ACUTUAL explosion damage calculation equation for radius of explosion and damage done?

thats the funny part of this topic. Because you don't know that really simple math there you don't know how much BS the rest of your post is.

oh, since i do not actually play, i can't tell you how it works, or why your FOTM mech builds are prone to explosion damage. Especially the logistics argument is really awesome...

edit:
btw, your cons are mostly pro-explosion damage arguments. New player can play the jihad role - doesn't need any extensions, just a yellow bot with plates. That goes one-in-one with giving them demobs.

being able to inflict heavy damage to the winning force is probably the best pro-explosion argument you can make - and again youre statement is based on limitless supply of robots and equip.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

4 (edited by Burial 2015-03-24 20:07:30)

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Interference and explosion damage together are some of the better mechanics, that being said, I do think the formula should be tweaked so the difference between framed and plated robots blowing up wouldn't be that huge.

Anyway, it's a colossal waste of time flip-flopping these mechanics around.

5 (edited by Celebro 2015-03-23 19:47:10)

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Ville is right here. Explosion dmg seems good on paper, but in practice it adds too much complexity to pvp. We want more people playing the game but we try to 'nerf' bigger fights, taking new players is a liability. Fights are won or lost at a whim where the margin for error is minimal. Might as well toss a coin and we are done with it.

Personally I would remove:

Interference
Explosion damage
Variable signal detection ( Old 1000m detection for all bots was fine)

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Annihilator wrote:
Phantomburn wrote:

What is the ACUTUAL explosion damage calculation equation for radius of explosion and damage done?

thats the funny part of this topic. Because you don't know that really simple math there you don't know how much BS the rest of your post is.

oh, since i do not actually play, i can't tell you how it works, or why your FOTM mech builds are prone to explosion damage. Especially the logistics argument is really awesome...

edit:
btw, your cons are mostly pro-explosion damage arguments. New player can play the jihad role - doesn't need any extensions, just a yellow bot with plates. That goes one-in-one with giving them demobs.

being able to inflict heavy damage to the winning force is probably the best pro-explosion argument you can make - and again youre statement is based on limitless supply of robots and equip.


Lol!  Hey new player.  I know you paid $30 to play a sweet pvp game but umm.. Yeah...  Your job I to run into the middle of the fleet and die to inflict damage!!!  Doesn't that sound cool?  With this train of thinking there's a reason the population is at 15 dudes in GC. Keep up the quality posting.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Celebro wrote:

Ville is right here. Explosion dmg seems good on paper, but in practice it adds too much complexity to pvp. We want more people playing the game but we try to 'nerf' bigger fights, taking new players is a liability. Fights are won or lost at a whim where the margin for error is minimal. Might as well toss a coin and we are done with it.

Personally I would remove:

Interference
Explosion damage
Variable signal detection ( Old 1000m detection for all bots was fine)

Interference is enough by even I'd tweak it down a bit.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Celebro wrote:

Ville is right here. Explosion dmg seems good on paper, but in practice it adds too much complexity to pvp. We want more people playing the game but we try to 'nerf' bigger fights, taking new players is a liability. Fights are won or lost at a whim where the margin for error is minimal. Might as well toss a coin and we are done with it.

Personally I would remove:

Interference
Explosion damage
Variable signal detection ( Old 1000m detection for all bots was fine)

neither of the systems as such is bad to exist - but neither of them is implemented following the KISS principles that should be the standard for game designs.

neither of the three systems allows the player to see or know how much they are affected - they all depend on at least 3 parameters that are always different.

explosion damage depends on:

  • hitpoints of the exploding robot

  • hitsize of the exploding robot

  • accumulator status of the exploding robot

  • hitsize of the recieving robot

  • resists of the recieving robot

  • distance of the recieving robot

Interference effect depends on:

  • interference threshold of the recieving robot

  • interference radius of the emitting robots

  • interference strenght of the emitting robots

Radar range depends on:

  • own detection value (depends on the bot class)

  • other bots masking (depends on the bot class)

  • extensions, auras and even interference change those numbers

those variables need to come down to be less different between bots... and well, robots exploding need to take a look at mechwarrior - a reactor meltdown there is a really big explosion, but they give you time to run.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

9 (edited by Celebro 2015-03-23 22:12:13)

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Anni- All that sounds good, but it a headache to balance properly. For instance they didn't expect explosion dmg would create beacon pits on gamma or the so many other exploits this would bring and can bring.

Interference: there is still a tactic to spread out, but sometimes there is little space to move around like when we (MS2) attacked an old gamma, the game was unplayable could not get a lock on anything. So we brought epic fights but got penalized for it.

Signal detection was added later and it has been a mess ever since. Easy roamable islands with no where to hide and very hard to see who has seen who without some guess work and a calculator.

Better to remove, much easier to do than what you are trying to accomplish. Even with these removed this game is still more hard core pvp than eve. There is a lot going on in a fight anyways , landmarks, radar, distances, cycle modules, using cover. In eve you just need to cycle modules and look at overview mostly.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

its a headache to balance, because there are so many factors - and no two situation are similar.

I don't understand why detection was f* up so much...
Ok, i can kinda explain why: If they had called it "stealth" instead of "masking" and make you have a kind of defense penalty in exchange of beeing able to sneak upon a target, then all would have cried "eve ripoff".
Still doesn't explain why there have to be different detection and masking parameters on each robot and not just 1 or two bots in total that are stealthier then aothers, with a module that allows to counter that stealth, and not increasing your general viewing range exorbitant.

Robot collision instead of interference was probably not considered because of more coding required and almost non-existant pathfinding routines for npcs that would allow it. The given arguments about player griefing on alpha sounds like an lame excuse (even though i admit it would have required a solution)

and explosion damage - making it dependant on all those factor listed in my previous post - i don't understand why someone would come up with those artifical multiplicators, instead of just making robots explode for X damage with X radius, and only maybe grophos remaining ammo already materialized into their launchers causing secondary explosions...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Annihilator wrote:

its a headache to balance, because there are so many factors - and no two situation are similar.

I don't understand why detection was f* up so much...
Ok, i can kinda explain why: If they had called it "stealth" instead of "masking" and make you have a kind of defense penalty in exchange of beeing able to sneak upon a target, then all would have cried "eve ripoff".
Still doesn't explain why there have to be different detection and masking parameters on each robot and not just 1 or two bots in total that are stealthier then aothers, with a module that allows to counter that stealth, and not increasing your general viewing range exorbitant.

Robot collision instead of interference was probably not considered because of more coding required and almost non-existant pathfinding routines for npcs that would allow it. The given arguments about player griefing on alpha sounds like an lame excuse (even though i admit it would have required a solution)

and explosion damage - making it dependant on all those factor listed in my previous post - i don't understand why someone would come up with those artifical multiplicators, instead of just making robots explode for X damage with X radius, and only maybe grophos remaining ammo already materialized into their launchers causing secondary explosions...

+1

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Food for thought:

The game got reduced to 3 viable fits and robots because certain sh*tlords fought their wars against us on the forums instead of in-game.

TL;DR

Explosion damage is Darwin's sword of justice striking down Mqx in the midst of the foul mouthbreathers.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

i like explotion dmg. makes stuff more intresting in many different ways.

maybe it can be simplified if needed, but still its a very good mechanic for pvp. and i think it should be back for pve as well... maybe beacons need to be removed from the syndicate store for it...

yes if you want to cramp up 100 ppl in a small area then you might get a problem. thats called terrain issues. allows for tactical benefits and so makes the game more intresting.
i also see most of the con points as pro points.

you want simple overview fights like in eve. well maybe then you should play eve instead... i left eve long ago.. .and the boring overview fleet fights was one of the reasons i left...

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Explosion damage & interference work fine & are some of the best anti- blobing mechanics ive seen in any MMO.

-1

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Without explosion damage and interference theres absolutely no reason why you wouldn't have a fleet of 100 stood directly on top of each other in a fleet fight. With them doing that would be suicidal. I know which I prefer.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Jita wrote:

Without explosion damage and interference theres absolutely no reason why you wouldn't have a fleet of 100 stood directly on top of each other in a fleet fight. With them doing that would be suicidal. I know which I prefer.

If it could mean 100+ battles I'm game.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Phantomburn wrote:
Jita wrote:

Without explosion damage and interference theres absolutely no reason why you wouldn't have a fleet of 100 stood directly on top of each other in a fleet fight. With them doing that would be suicidal. I know which I prefer.

If it could mean 100+ battles I'm game.

step 1: get 100 ppl to play this game
step 2: wake up from our dreams of having 100+ ppl play this game
step 3: cry into our pillows (or keyboard depending where you sleep) cause we know we cant get 100 ppl to play this game
step 4: goto forums to write a post and return to step 1 tomorrow night.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Altera wrote:
Phantomburn wrote:
Jita wrote:

Without explosion damage and interference theres absolutely no reason why you wouldn't have a fleet of 100 stood directly on top of each other in a fleet fight. With them doing that would be suicidal. I know which I prefer.

If it could mean 100+ battles I'm game.

step 1: get 100 ppl to play this game
step 2: wake up from our dreams of having 100+ ppl play this game
step 3: cry into our pillows (or keyboard depending where you sleep) cause we know we cant get 100 ppl to play this game
step 4: goto forums to write a post and return to step 1 tomorrow night.

bio worthy

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

*** it; INCREASE explosion damage!

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

20 (edited by Khetar 2015-03-24 18:17:11)

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Since fights with explosion damage take two places of my top 3 early days memories of perpetuum, I give a big
-1

Explosiondamage is fun to watch, especially for newbies. I remember having 20 new guys in STC (zwiss days, before all the whining and forum wars) and blobbing vets in lightbots and assaults and enjoying to see him blowing himself up by popping us.
Also a great anti blob mechanic and they make you think while pvping instead of blobbing. If you prefer blobwarfare, better stay in eve smile

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

just remember, this topic was sparked by this killmail:
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/263738

a mk2 mesmer of a so-called "new player" was lost to the AoE explosion of a mk1 seth and a vagabond. looking at the battle summary, the mesmer was neither demobbed, nor was it killed under a teleport or station.

and no tree was harmed.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Why must we constantly remove content? All that's ever happened since I started playing this game has been removal of content. We want people to come and play the game yet we seem to always be advocating to remove stuff from the game, especially the stuff that makes this game unique, like AOE and LOS.

How about we start encouraging the DEV's to ADD content, not remove it! As I said above all that's ever happened is stuff has been taken out, and judging by the numbers playing that's worked out nicely hasn't it.

And before anyone yells, "what about the new mining system" let me say that all that content was there already, all they did was change the mechanics around to make it just work differently. You could argue the mission system was adding content, although 2 or 3 missions per 5 /6 levels over 5 years is hardly what I would call noteworthy, and if you weigh this against all the content that has been removed over those 5 years, it's not really what I would call progress.

I guess gamma could be considered new content, but given that we have had 2 versions of gamma and we, once again, look at the numbers playing, we could , once again, come to the conclusion it's hardly worked out well has it.

Can anyone point me to one game where DEVS have removed content and player numbers have increased?

my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Blocker wrote:

...Can anyone point me to one game where DEVS have removed content and player numbers have increased?

my 2 cents for what it's worth.

its hard to compare this with other games, since the reaction time towards imbalanced implements or exploits is usually counted in hours or days, not years. Aside from that, other game studios don'T seem to rewrite their features after deploying to the server right away.

most the content you fill in as "removed" was something that was added at some point and left alone. like beacons... implemented as "ultra rare loot drops" have been added to the token shop with limitless supply, and then walls and terraforming was added as extra features. Suddenly beacon pits became unintenden content that got exploited to a massive extend. In my perspective, the beacons have removed more content then they have added - and again, not their initial release, but the follow up patches.

same with roaming npcs, their first implementation was good, but already the first patch a few days later has changed their "role" so significantly, that the whole feature was as good as removed. (observers camping players into alpha outposts big_smile)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Blocker is always a logical guy. I don't think any new content has been added in my last year playing. It's always content being balanced or removed. I was excited for cool bases on gamma.

Re: Explosion damage needs to be lowered.

Phantomburn wrote:
Jita wrote:

Without explosion damage and interference theres absolutely no reason why you wouldn't have a fleet of 100 stood directly on top of each other in a fleet fight. With them doing that would be suicidal. I know which I prefer.

If it could mean 100+ battles I'm game.

No your not this was Sh*t house back in the days before we had the 2 mechanics being discussed. Tactics where dumbed down & who could bring the most bots generally won.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue