Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Here is my take on this entire situation:

Feel free to correct me.

Production takes a 500K sololy dedicated account to get into on a corp level.  I can't be bothered to do the math on how long that is.  But that's what it takes to get effective in refining/recycling/manfuc/proto/reverse/market/tax reduction skills.  Not to mention research.

So what does that do for New corps?  It forces new corps to buy the bots and mods they need from the market.  So corps tend to be capitalist at first then as they progress to a more end game corp they become communist.  I have personally watched this evolution over 5 different times in different corps.  What SHOULD be happening is that corps who want to be communist should have a more efficient push.

-> Tying into the topic at hand.

Reducing the commodities in bots like lights and assaults (even removing epi from light ewars) will make the New corps able to mass produce MORE gear and bots and spend more time doing the fun stuff like blowing them up and give them a chance to fight for territory and space!

It will also bring the cost of these bots down drastically, which allows for the unorganized corp to more effectively buy stuff off the market.

--Rebuttal:  Well Veteran corps can manufacture stuff so much faster and cheaper!

At this stage of the game, for me to make 100 waspish.  I merely pull 5 to 10 wasp CTs out of storage.  Right click select all my minerals allotted to the producers in L3.  Refine the commodities, put the left over raw mats in storage and wait a week.  For say, cons?  100 waspish well...  That's going to take a month or two or five. 

@whoever cares.
--Less Grind, More Fun.

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

and as a side product, nearly noone will need to buy anything from the market because they can produce everything on their own. except a few solo PVE player that seldomly lose a robot.

i don't think making noob corps self suficient early on is the right way to do this.
you should think about a way that encourages efficient corps to export their goods to those noobs.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

I think the market would be fine with this provided that those bots actually got blown up.

Both the supply and demand sides need to be addressed.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

The price of bot is high, but it is done with purpose as before bot was to cheap compared to its equipment.

The other point is not the amount of minerals but wide variety of different commodities. For light bot having 7 different commodities it just unnecessary hassle. Thats fine for a HM.

Argano and Sequer needs Titanium, Plasteosine and Cryoperine. Why not for faction light bot reducing to  2 general + 1 faction commodity with roughly same worth?

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Annihilator wrote:

and as a side product, nearly noone will need to buy anything from the market because they can produce everything on their own. except a few solo PVE player that seldomly lose a robot.

i don't think making noob corps self suficient early on is the right way to do this.
you should think about a way that encourages efficient corps to export their goods to those noobs.

The point is 7 commodities for a lightbot is too much.

Goffer can you post that in German so Anni understands?

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Ville wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

and as a side product, nearly noone will need to buy anything from the market because they can produce everything on their own. except a few solo PVE player that seldomly lose a robot.

i don't think making noob corps self suficient early on is the right way to do this.
you should think about a way that encourages efficient corps to export their goods to those noobs.

The point is 7 commodities for a lightbot is too much.

Goffer can you post that in German so Anni understands?

thats the point of the topic, but not your last post that i answerd too. there you talked about something thats unrelated to number of commodities used.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

People always need to buy something from the market.

There's a difference between being able to produce everything, and actually producing everything.

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Bump, for great Idea.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

+1

35 (edited by logicalNegation 2015-01-09 17:23:54)

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

This is a great discussion.

I do agree not all products should span the high variety of 2nd-level industry components.  But as a way to compromise the reduced variety with the possible result of super-cheap bots, is to increase the quantity.
This will also encourage industry characters to focus on one faction or another, host themselves on islands with requisite kernals and raw materials, and become a staple of their market suppliers. 

This will further segregate markets and centers of industry, which is something eve ironically has been trying to do to lessen the load on jita, and provide viable markets for non-maxed out indy characters.  (Less centralized, less competition, more room for margins).  [Edit: I forgot to highlight this would be BAD with current market density, we need a 'jita' to drive prices down as they are way inflated from undersupply, and new players that cant supply themselves.]

One thing that was a twist for me seeing this games industry material and processes: the prototypes and subsequent tiered item being required for the next tier item.
This is interesting, but seems to overwhelming result in one outcome: T1->T3 are more valuable as factory component than they are modules themselves.
To ville's comment, T2 should not just be a component to make t3, then t4, it should be a useful module in its own right.  However, purely by what the process is set up as, demand for them as products to produce the most valuable and highest margins will outweigh the potential new customer base that would be buying this extra performative T2 module.

What then? you may ask. Since each tier requires effectively the module(embedded with the module's material composition) plus another load of the same materials + another type(increasing in rarity/price).  Why not supplant the required lower tier item with its material-demand instead?

Prototypes will still be needed to make the CT, and maybe for this the lower tier item is still needed (since this would once per some 100 modules).  But the CT will not have a requirement for the tier before! [Maybe its optional? That however feels like something that might not be ready to implement code-wise]

This would result in the T2 and T3 modules becoming their own end-products, sought out for their own benefits balanced against price! 
Again, as ville said, they need to be useful and perhaps uniquely so, versus the other tiers.  Lower fitting for T2 is good, but maybe extra effectiveness (just a smidge).  T3 maybe only boosts 1/2 of the modules different effects... maybe this opens up a whole variety of different Tier variations that can exist before the 'maxed-out' T4.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

I swear you could roll the whole game back to the state it was at original release and it would be a hundred times better

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

I think one of the overlooked things here is : NIC has few uses.

If efficient corporations required higher amounts of operation capital, then the market may flow more. As it stands they have few outlets that they cant suppliment 90% of by their own building capabilities. Some of these sinks are :

Teleports : 50k-1.5m NIC ea
Probes : 1m ea
Cans : 4k ea
Storage : 50k ea/wk
Industrial : 5k-10m ea/wk

Taking this into account, when end game is reached Storage and Industrial costs are nearly moot due to return from station income. Cans are so insignificant due to low price and infinite storage capacity, so you use what 1 per site per session which can mean 1 site per 1-5 hrs on average, if the can didn't refresh its expiration while open then more cans would need to be on site, and if it had limited capacity more cans would be required for large operations instead of 1. Probes & Teleport prices are negated from plasma sales alone. So that sink gets negated by the plasma faucet.

If there is a proper balance between NIC sinks and NIC faucets that grows with size of operation and thus size of corporation there may be more incentive to sell part of the stock piles that efficient corporations have and are making late game. This alone would not fix the market per se but would cause a required flow of NIC, the only issue I see is that the sink would have to be greater then that that is provided by plasma sales alone.

Mix this with re-evaluating the lower tier material list, then we would most likely see larger efficient corporations less likely to build their own small bits and buy them instead, because the NIC they require eats up more of their higher end build lines. This puts higher end items in younger hands, and allows for the younger hands to be the pseudo outsource for the lesser of the items.

Anyways, my 2 cents here.
Ambe

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

take as NIC sink into account:
- Noralgis incubator
- Gamma base (Deconstruction, Concrete Layer,...)

This work to a far better extend than Cans or storage cost.
What might be needed is a NIC sink that scales better with corp size, as a corp with 5 player has nearly the same costs than a corp with 100 player, but this is something more needed in a future with large corps, as 100 active player in a corp are not existant.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

1K NIC / week for unlimited corp storage
1k NIC for a unlimited space field container, that takes 1U space in your cargo, but is a necessary for on-terrain exchange of cargo

geoscanner ammo that is NPC sold only, and requires you to carry specific ones for each and every different type of scan
etc...

there are so many joke NIC sinks...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

IMO the nic sinks should be geared against resource accumulation. Nic cost that's exponentially higher dependent upon the amount of stuff you store in personal and corp hangers.

Maintainance costs that increade dependent upon how long stuff stays not used.

Low to none existent costs for people with a moderate amount of stuff who use it often. Punatively high for people who have piles of *** they don't use.

This would push a lot of stuff on to the market and encourage a more hand to mouth existance reducing fatigue.

The real wealth then would be nic and provided you keep steady inflation this would balance the game as well as increase ICE sales.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

That type of wealth is easy to generate when you're botting on Alpha.

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Syndic wrote:

That type of wealth is easy to generate when you're botting on Alpha.

Indeed. And since botting on alpha is dev sanctioned now checks and balances are a good idea.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Goffer wrote:

take as NIC sink into account:
- Noralgis incubator
- Gamma base (Deconstruction, Concrete Layer,...)

This work to a far better extend than Cans or storage cost.
What might be needed is a NIC sink that scales better with corp size, as a corp with 5 player has nearly the same costs than a corp with 100 player, but this is something more needed in a future with large corps, as 100 active player in a corp are not existant.


I left these two sinks out for different reasons, Noralgis incubators we have not purchased as a corp for ages due to them being an artifact drop. And the gamma ones are not used often enough to consider a true sink, only really in the sense of a mining tower and even then the sink is eclipsed by the output. Your point of scaled NIC sinks is dead on, when NSE was a 10 man corp the NIC sinks felt proper (as 10 rookies) but shortly there after they were so insignificant that we stopped caring the quantity we purchased of most NIC sink items.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Jita wrote:

IMO the nic sinks should be geared against resource accumulation. Nic cost that's exponentially higher dependent upon the amount of stuff you store in personal and corp hangers.

Maintainance costs that increade dependent upon how long stuff stays not used.

Low to none existent costs for people with a moderate amount of stuff who use it often. Punatively high for people who have piles of *** they don't use.

This would push a lot of stuff on to the market and encourage a more hand to mouth existance reducing fatigue.

The real wealth then would be nic and provided you keep steady inflation this would balance the game as well as increase ICE sales.


Ironically I agree to a point here with Jita, this would also cause more conflict in Beta's as well. Since at the moment if you lose access to a beta terminal your corp storage stays open unless you destroy its assets and close it. This would cause fights to reopen and relocate those corporate assets. This could also backfire as well, as it would do two other things :

1) Encourage corp leads to self store intems in personal hangars
2) Cause larger corporations to use storages in Alpha (Unless the payback from station services belong to them ofc which can cause corp based deployment stations instead of alliance based deployment stations)

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Amano Terijima wrote:

2) Cause larger corporations to use storages in Alpha (Unless the payback from station services belong to them ofc which can cause corp based deployment stations instead of alliance based deployment stations)

This just made me think: 

Corp storage fees should scale based on progress of corp.  Either the research tree progress,  age of corp, or the amount of stuff in it.


Additional NIC sink ideas:
- Weekly fee to declare war on another corp like in Eve.  Have it do something cool like enemies you declared war against on beta get their PvP flag set when you shoot them.

- Corporation registration fee, your corp has to pay to exist.  The longer it exists the more you pay - and it should hurt. You get discounts for going into beta/gamma  but not too terribly significant.  Maybe based on enemy corp kill (that you declared war against),  epriton/colixum mined,  or something along those lines.

-K

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Kayin Prime wrote:
Amano Terijima wrote:

2) Cause larger corporations to use storages in Alpha (Unless the payback from station services belong to them ofc which can cause corp based deployment stations instead of alliance based deployment stations)

Corp storage fees should scale based on progress of corp.  Either the research tree progress,  age of corp, or the amount of stuff in it.

That would just get gamed. Having a cost based around storage amount would prevent megacorps, encourage emergent gameplay and fill the market full of stuff.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Think about how this would work. If you never log in and your sat on a billion epriton your storage costs would drain your nic quite quickly. When you run out of nic the game would begin selling off your assets starting with the minerals, then the modules, then the robots until your at the base level of stuff where you are not charged at all. The market would get flooded with stuff as people sat on huge personal and corp assets prevent themselves from incurring large costs. Transaction cost is rebalanced to prevent people putting stuff up at crazy prices to keep it. As nic becomes more scarce and stuff becomes cheaper ICE starts to be bought and sold and there is a reason to do PVE again. Corps and individuals no longer have cost free piles of stuff that will last forever. Having stuff in multiple stations incurs increased costs making power projection more costly. The game becomes more about if you play NOW and not two years ago and the balance of power shifts making new corps stronger compared with the old.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Jita wrote:

Think about how this would work. If you never log in and your sat on a billion epriton your storage costs would drain your nic quite quickly. When you run out of nic the game would begin selling off your assets starting with the minerals, then the modules, then the robots until your at the base level of stuff where you are not charged at all. The market would get flooded with stuff as people sat on huge personal and corp assets prevent themselves from incurring large costs. Transaction cost is rebalanced to prevent people putting stuff up at crazy prices to keep it. As nic becomes more scarce and stuff becomes cheaper ICE starts to be bought and sold and there is a reason to do PVE again. Corps and individuals no longer have cost free piles of stuff that will last forever. Having stuff in multiple stations incurs increased costs making power projection more costly. The game becomes more about if you play NOW and not two years ago and the balance of power shifts making new corps stronger compared with the old.

I would put an intermediary step in there, like a 30 day impounding before sale which incurs a rent + 10% penalty to remove the items impounded. To make this idea efficient there would have to be some corporation level changes as well, such as wallet division’s, direct from corp storage features like corp market orders manageable by those with proper roles, build from and to corporate storages, etc. All of these changes would feed the ability for adaptations that can help markets when paired with the aforementioned NIC sink capabilities.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

also, a great money sink is a working bounty system.

you kill someone - you get a bounty on your head, that is payed from YOUR wallet, and perma-pvp flags until the bounty was removed. The system would also include your corp, affecting docking rights, taxes and standing with npc factions..


... ah, dreaming....

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Annihilator wrote:

also, a great money sink is a working bounty system.

you kill someone - you get a bounty on your head, that is payed from YOUR wallet, and perma-pvp flags until the bounty was removed. The system would also include your corp, affecting docking rights, taxes and standing with npc factions..


... ah, dreaming....

This in its raw form will cause exploitation, to properly impliment global flagging would require one of two things. A security level standing, which IMHO would not work in the layout of this game, or bounty restrictions such as a time limit on the bounty, when the bounty becomes effective, a time frame which a person in unable to be bountied as a cool down etc. Though this would be a great idea, would need some fine tuning in order to make it work properly with out over exploitation. (Should start a thread hashing out ideas on how to lay this out, I would like to see something designed too big_smile)