Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

there was no patch related problem in yesterdays fight.
unless the patch affected the oppositions FCing skills.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Kayin Prime wrote:

- You are NOT committing to PvP by jumping to Beta alone. You have to get a few thousand meters off the TP before you're committing anything.

- You can go from 100% certain death to 100% safety via the click of a button and then reengage 30 seconds later when circumstances are in your favor.

- Attackers will constantly refresh PvP flag whereas defenders will not.  The game mechanics favor running away rather than fighting.   

These are the problems with the current jump mechanics.  These were not created by the patch.  The patch only makes them worse.

-K

Annihilator. Your post had nothing to do with the thread so I'm going to shamelessly repost this.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

DarkTerror wrote:

What's the problem ? Everyone knows how it works and the same rules apply to everyone.

No everyone know how things work, for sure NOT the DEV's, example:

When you undock from station you get two timers: protection and molecular inestability, when protection reach zero, 1/4 from the molecular inestability timer left, but, when you log in-game and you undock from station the first time, and the protection reach zero, 1/2 molecular inestability timer left.

Thinking beyond, perhaps similar problem with "divergent timers" (hi Titor) exist when jumping the gate the first time.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Race Drones wrote:

No everyone know how things work, for sure NOT the DEV's, example:

When you undock from station you get two timers: protection and molecular inestability, when protection reach zero, 1/4 from the molecular inestability timer left, but, when you log in-game and you undock from station the first time, and the protection reach zero, 1/2 molecular inestability timer left.

Thinking beyond, perhaps similar problem with "divergent timers" (hi Titor) exist when jumping the gate the first time.

shows that YOU dont know how it works.
DEV Zoom has explained it clearly how it works. (you can dig it up yourself, takes only a few seconds if you know how the game works)
I have explained earlier and later why syndicate protection is a useless bandaid mechanic at all.

Kaying - if you think fighting at the alpha teleports is a problem for you... then don't do it.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

55 (edited by Race Drones 2015-01-06 01:42:44)

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Annihilator wrote:

shows that YOU dont know how it works.
DEV Zoom has explained it clearly how it works. (you can dig it up yourself, takes only a few seconds if you know how the game works)
I have explained earlier and later why syndicate protection is a useless bandaid mechanic at all.

PLEASE EXPLAIN why when you log in Perp and undock from station have a diferent time when you undock again with the same char, the same robot, in the same island, in the same station.

What DEV Zoom said?, where is the link?, the players need to know this ganking bug or feature (related to the logoff trap).

Do you know that "syndicate protection" is a "feature" related to the game session changes?.

Do it DEV Zoom!, remove the "useless bandaid mechanic".

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Quick Note.

Zoom has stated several times how HE "thinks" things work, and it turns out he doesn't know how it actually works in game.

Pro Tip, explain how it works, verses how Zoom "thinks" it works.

All this "I'm too smug to repost what I said I already posted go look it up." gets us nowhere.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

RaceDrones syndicate protection and instability work off your connection...lol I know right...

As soon as the server sees you undock or teleport your syndicate protection starts.  As soon as you LOAD your instability starts.

Meaning how bad the server is lagging determine how long you sit there.  There's a lot of people who die before there even loaded on to terrain.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

One would think a switching that around might work, so you could at least load THEN to see yourself die.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

of course it would matter....


DEV Zoom wrote:
Kayin Prime wrote:

Then it seems like a more consistent step would be to force a PvP flag after you come back from beta whether you engaged in PvP or not.

That's an interesting idea, but would it matter?

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

60 (edited by Kayin Prime 2015-01-08 17:31:42)

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:
Kayin Prime wrote:

Then it seems like a more consistent step would be to force a PvP flag after you come back from beta whether you engaged in PvP or not.

That's an interesting idea, but would it matter?

Zoom, yes this would matter because when you decide to jump to beta you would be truly are committing to entering a PvP zone.

Right now you are not committing to PvP because you can jump back to 100% safety within a small window. Then you can jump back in, then jump back out, then jump back in, etc.  There is no commitment.  You can grief and tease that you're going to PvP but you are not committing to anything.

Anyone who has experience with women know that a tease is not a commitment.

-K

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

That's not what I meant though. Based on some posts here, right now escaping back to alpha with a PvP flag is deemed "insufficient punishment" because you can't catch the victim before the flag expires. Receiving a PvP flag when going back to alpha, regardless whether you were doing PvP on beta or not would make practically no difference to this outcome, because you can't catch him anyway.

It would have one consequence though, namely that victim-hungry teleport camps would be placed on the alpha side now.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

please DEV Zoom, to make it consistent, you also need to make auto PVP flag when you log in or undock an outpost on beta or gamma.

Also, Members of corporations who own a beta or gamma station need to be permanently PvP flagged on alpha because their ownership commits them to be PvP player.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

63 (edited by BeastmodeGuNs 2015-01-08 20:15:37)

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

This thread and its Ideas in a nutshell http://tinyurl.com/nh9lwyh

Anyways...

WARNING TEXT WALL INCOMING

FFS the reason people here want the mechanics change is because of the win/lose bias that has led people to beg for mechanics changes in the past, as far as I'm concerned the mechanics are alright as they are now, and this is coming from someone who has been caught and killed on stations before, theres nothing of major note wrong with the current flagging mechanics, just some annoyances like the curse of uber long instability, lol, but nothing of problem on a large scale.

But if you are gonna do something with the PvP flagging mechanics to force more commitment or something, maybe when someone puts down a field deployable thing (minus certain wall structures, certain gamma structures, etc.)
Make it so like, when someone goes to drop say.... a probe or a teleport beacon somewhere on beta it will auto PvP flag them (teles take 3 minutes to fully charge, PvP flags 5 minutes to end, not too much trouble if you deflag clean)

And if you really wanted to do some stuff for the flagging mechanics then heres an idea with field containers, increase the amount of times you can try to put in the code to a non-squad field(loot can too) can to somewhere between 15-30 times or so, then add the twist:
-Once you get to say... 5 attempts or less left, unless you can crack the code you will get auto PvP flagged for the usual amount of time.

Not that good of an idea, I know, but its not ridiculous like some things in here and its probably doable only real issue would be that people probably would not take the risk and would just stop on 6 attempts left, other then that, not many flaws I see.

Also, I don't remember too well but if I'm correct this game used to have some kind of mechanic that flagged you red(rather then the normal PvP flag orange) that also made you shootable I think. (Similar to the mechanic in EVE which gives you the outlaw status if your sec falls below -5.0) If so, then dig that thing up and make a work about for the mechanic, the tricky part would obviously be the rules set for the mechanic's code and what would cause this flag but the way it would be could be that you can dock, use teles and what not normally but you can be engaged freely and being engaged will auto activate a PvP flag for you as well as the agressor (PvP flag could start to end normally but can be reset WHEN it ends) and if you get this certain status could depend on various things like standings to certain NPC corps in certain colored alpha islands which could be removed with standings improvement by having a set of special standings missions out of the main beta terminal for the said faction.
(norhoop -> pelestil empire for example) And these missions would help to recover relation with said faction and remove this certain standing, and if need-be make it so when someone engages a target who is not PvP flagged on beta that they get a small standings drop or something to have some purpose to the mechanic and so on. I'm sure some Ideas can be made with this.

The ideas are probably not that great and won't be seen as good either, but i'm just putting in some ideas to it other then just being PvP flagged every single time you jump from beta to alpha or being perma flagged if you own a beta outpost and so on. But still adding to the ways of the PvP flag and so on.

TEXT WALL END

TL;DR
1)Current flag mechanics not that bad
2)Alot of the ideas in this thread are just plain silly
3)If you do want to make some changes and more conditions for PvP flag, see my crappy ideas
4)Derp

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Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Annihilator wrote:

please DEV Zoom, to make it consistent, you also need to make auto PVP flag when you log in or undock an outpost on beta or gamma.

Also, Members of corporations who own a beta or gamma station need to be permanently PvP flagged on alpha because their ownership commits them to be PvP player.

I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but I'm going to give you an answer just for the argument's sake:

1) this allows for plasma ganking on alpha
2) anybody not on beta/gamma has assets on alpha - too easy to gank, hit and run
3) every corp has members who enjoy alpha - you apparently want them to leave the game
4) alpha is already overpowered, you want even more power?
5) now that i think of it, i feel bad for spending a couple minutes answering you, cause your suggestion was so bad my eyes bleed

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Rasnath wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

please DEV Zoom, to make it consistent, you also need to make auto PVP flag when you log in or undock an outpost on beta or gamma.

Also, Members of corporations who own a beta or gamma station need to be permanently PvP flagged on alpha because their ownership commits them to be PvP player.

I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but I'm going to give you an answer just for the argument's sake:

1) this allows for plasma ganking on alpha
2) anybody not on beta/gamma has assets on alpha - too easy to gank, hit and run
3) every corp has members who enjoy alpha - you apparently want them to leave the game
4) alpha is already overpowered, you want even more power?
5) now that i think of it, i feel bad for spending a couple minutes answering you, cause your suggestion was so bad my eyes bleed

Obvious troll obvious?

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

BeastmodeGuNs wrote:
Rasnath wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

please DEV Zoom, to make it consistent, you also need to make auto PVP flag when you log in or undock an outpost on beta or gamma.

Also, Members of corporations who own a beta or gamma station need to be permanently PvP flagged on alpha because their ownership commits them to be PvP player.

I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but I'm going to give you an answer just for the argument's sake:

1) this allows for plasma ganking on alpha
2) anybody not on beta/gamma has assets on alpha - too easy to gank, hit and run
3) every corp has members who enjoy alpha - you apparently want them to leave the game
4) alpha is already overpowered, you want even more power?
5) now that i think of it, i feel bad for spending a couple minutes answering you, cause your suggestion was so bad my eyes bleed

Obvious troll obvious?

yup, it was quite obvious

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Annihilator wrote:

please DEV Zoom, to make it consistent, you also need to make auto PVP flag when you log in or undock an outpost on beta or gamma.

Also, Members of corporations who own a beta or gamma station need to be permanently PvP flagged on alpha because their ownership commits them to be PvP player.

I'm actually ok with that.  Despite obvious troll being obvious.

68 (edited by Kayin Prime 2015-01-08 20:39:55)

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:

That's not what I meant though. Based on some posts here, right now escaping back to alpha with a PvP flag is deemed "insufficient punishment" because you can't catch the victim before the flag expires. Receiving a PvP flag when going back to alpha, regardless whether you were doing PvP on beta or not would make practically no difference to this outcome, because you can't catch him anyway.

It would have one consequence though, namely that victim-hungry teleport camps would be placed on the alpha side now.

I'm disagree with you about being unable to catch them.  We can't catch them on Beta because they don't really enter Beta.  Sitting at the teleport is a tease that they're entering Beta. A tease and a threat really, like sticking your tongue out then jumping across the line when someone responds to the troll. It only takes the twitch of a finger muscle.

By adding the PvP flag when jumping out of Beta the entrance to Alpha is not a single activation tile. There is no more bottle neck.  There is no twitch of a finger muscle.  Now it becomes a time dependent entrance - a cool off from PvP.  If you want to escape you'll run and cool off, but you HAVE TO RUN. 

The twitch of a finger muscle to quickly click a button is not "running away".     
Sitting on a teleport teasing that you're about to PvP but immediately jump out at the first sign of a threat is not committing to entering a PvP zone.

As for the teleport camping.  Yes and no.   As soon as you teleport onto the island you commit to entering a PvP zone. If I face check an Artemis. I can still teleport back to alpha and run like hell and possibly get away.  That's the difference - I have a fighting chance at running away and that artemis has a fighting chance of catching me. The teleport back to alpha gives me that head start  where as trying to run away on Beta doesn't as I have no where to go really.  It's not a camp if I'm not cornered immediately upon spawn.   

Not to mention the camp is instantly broken the second that artemis has to jump through and chase me.  He now enters an area he doesn't have eyes on.  It could be a trap. Who knows.  That is truly a chase. Both parties are on equal ground at that point with the runner having a head start. A valid head start.

-K

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

are you sure its a troll post?
actually not... ist just a shortened version like a DEV Blog.

also, somewhere before, Zoom mentioned that the game does not differ from where you come when you deploy to terrain. so... half of my post would be result of your demand of "getting pvp flagged when porting to beta from alpha", if they would implement a mechanic like that.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Annihilator wrote:

are you sure its a troll post?
actually not... ist just a shortened version like a DEV Blog.

also, somewhere before, Zoom mentioned that the game does not differ from where you come when you deploy to terrain. so... half of my post would be result of your demand of "getting pvp flagged when porting to beta from alpha", if they would implement a mechanic like that.

getting pvp flagged when porting to beta from alpha is a bad idea. Just outright bad. Any transporters or artifacters getting pvped on alpha looks bad.

As for alpha flagging gamma corporations - thats idiocy. When ratting, you are easy kill. While mining, you're easy kill. While harvesting, you're easy kill. How much more advantage do you corps who dont need gamma want?

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Rasnath wrote:

getting pvp flagged when porting to beta from alpha is a bad idea. Just outright bad. Any transporters or artifacters getting pvped on alpha looks bad.

Why?

If you're transporting from Beta to Alpha there should actually be a risk.  Right now you drop a standard tele, wait for it to spool, undock,  run to tele,  jump to exit tele.   There's practically no opportunity for gank. If you can tank 1 shot then you're invincible hauling to Alpha.  Guaranteed success.   

Hauling from gamma to alpha actually poses acceptable risk because after you jump out of gamma you're still pvp-able. Exactly as it should be and exactly as proposed.

Do you realize how much content this game could have if people could actually gank supply lines?  I would trade gate games for legitimate supply line defense any day of the week, no matter how it makes my own life harder.

-K

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

I think that a 1km area around beta entrances should be a PvP zone. This would help with the problem detailed as well as prevent invulnerable gate scouts.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Kayin Prime wrote:
Rasnath wrote:

getting pvp flagged when porting to beta from alpha is a bad idea. Just outright bad. Any transporters or artifacters getting pvped on alpha looks bad.

Why?

If you're transporting from Beta to Alpha there should actually be a risk.  Right now you drop a standard tele, wait for it to spool, undock,  run to tele,  jump to exit tele.   There's practically no opportunity for gank. If you can tank 1 shot then you're invincible hauling to Alpha.  Guaranteed success.   

Hauling from gamma to alpha actually poses acceptable risk because after you jump out of gamma you're still pvp-able. Exactly as it should be and exactly as proposed.

Do you realize how much content this game could have if people could actually gank supply lines?  I would trade gate games for legitimate supply line defense any day of the week, no matter how it makes my own life harder.

-K

simple, you have molecular instability when you get out of teleport. A scarab gets oneshot.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

This was annoying pre patch.  Now it's a problem post patch.  6 months to rebalance the rebalance...

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Jita wrote:

I think that a 1km area around beta entrances should be a PvP zone. This would help with the problem detailed as well as prevent invulnerable gate scouts.

Meh, I can dig it, just watch the range get broken and the entire island turned into PvP area! fuuu

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