1 (edited by Perpetuum 2014-12-16 20:35:53)

Topic: Your Kidding Right.

Now you want our input into the game balancing?

Surely your Joking.  What is more comical is you want it to be "backed up by numbers". 

Yea lets shovel this over to the player base for them to fix after we F'ed everything up.  Sure this will get me on vacation again, but really guys this is THEE definition of CRAZY, INSANITY.

Look at the kill board, Link.

Look at what bots are dieing, and being used more then from the previous months.  This isn't a shuffle of game balance here and there, this is game breaking, at comical levels. 

First you insult US for telling you something is wrong, you say "no no your wrong were not doing anything about it".

Then you say "Ok something might be wrong, could you tell us where it is and we might fix it?"

So am I suppose to have you spit in my face, and enjoy it?

This isn't MENT to be overly abrasive, it is ment to take the same tone that you are giving your player base right now.

I will give you some credit, you have to sift through the consistent political BS everyday.  EVERY single day, very few posters accutally leave there tags at the door. For this you do have my pitty.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

You're*

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Fix that link.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Your Kidding Right.

I'm looking at that link but I honestly don't know what you mean. I see all kinds of robots being used.

5 (edited by Nooodlzs 2014-12-16 21:40:37)

Re: Your Kidding Right.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'm looking at that link but I honestly don't know what you mean. I see all kinds of robots being used.

Killed. FYP

Look at the bots doing the killing maybe, as I mentioned 3 or 4 viable bots now.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'm looking at that link but I honestly don't know what you mean. I see all kinds of robots being used.

http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=stats

http://killboard.sequer.nl/index.php?a= … p;month=10

Try that

Re: Your Kidding Right.

ok, because the w(h)ining PvP faction suddenly runs only a smaller selection of bots, "teaches" their new lapdogs whats the "best to use" ... that list is very representative.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Annihilator wrote:

ok, because the w(h)ining PvP faction suddenly runs only a smaller selection of bots, "teaches" their new lapdogs whats the "best to use" ... that list is very representative.

Actually it is, comparing the two, the distribution of bots being used has dynamically changed to a few FOTM bots, whereas Octobers listings were a lot more varied.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

I like arbalest mk2 rise

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Your Kidding Right.

@op your 100% right.

Jita said it best:  deploy terrible patch spend six monthes fixing problems, six monthes behind scheduled development.  GG.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Phantomburn wrote:

@op your 100% right.

Jita said it best:  deploy terrible patch spend six monthes fixing problems, six monthes behind scheduled development.  GG.

Honestly I can't emphasise this enough. It will take patch after patch and thread after thread to fix what's broken and in the end the result will still be bad.

If you don't want to roll it back I understand but just for theory sake start a thread asking what we think the patch should have looked like. Maybe you will like it better, you don't have the monopoly on good ideas.

12 (edited by Jasmoba 2014-12-17 00:43:24)

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Annihilator wrote:

ok, because the w(h)ining PvP faction suddenly runs only a smaller selection of bots, "teaches" their new lapdogs whats the "best to use" ... that list is very representative.


First of all keep it civil this is not political this is important

Second you NEVER play.  You NEVER pvp.  I have no idea if you PVE besides shooting lights near a station.

Third IF you DO NOT PLAY please stay away from topics involving how the game works.



Dear DEVS

Those links do provide a lot of data in what people use the most.

If you start looking into the actual kill you can see what modules were used.  For the most part.

OFC you probably already knew this.  The kill boards provide a lot of data you could use for balancing.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

I think you need to reedit the *** from that

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Top robot kills (participation, by type) in December 2014
Robot  Kills
Arbalest Mk2  183
Artemis Mk2  71
Kain Mk2  59
Artemis  55
Baphomet Mk2  51
Seth Mk2  44
Baphomet  44
Mesmer Mk2  41
Castel Mk2  38
Cameleon Mk2  34
Intakt Mk2  34
Kain  23
Castel  20
Arbalest  19
Gropho  18
Seth  16
Troiar Mk2  16
Cameleon  15
Tyrannos  13
Waspish  12
Gropho Mk2  7

Prometheus  6
Mesmer  6
Zenith  5
Zenith Mk2  5
Riveler  5
Vagabond Mk2  4
Termis  4
Ictus  3
Ictus Mk2  3

Sequer  3
Intakt  3
Tyrannos Mk2  2
Troiar  2

Vagabond  1
Prometheus Mk2  1
Argano  1


Top robot deaths (by type) in December 2014
Robot  Deaths
Baphomet  35
Arbalest  31
Arkhe  24
Termis  23
Artemis  17
Kain  16
Prometheus  15
Kain Mk2  13
Cameleon Mk2  13
Arbalest Mk2  12
Sequer  12
Cameleon  11
Baphomet Mk2  11
Artemis Mk2  11
Waspish  10
Argano  10
Castel  10
Yagel  9
Seth Mk2  7
Tyrannos  7
Troiar  5
Castel Mk2  4
Seth  4
Riveler  4
Intakt  4
Sequer Mk2  3
Gropho  3
Gargoyle  2
Vagabond  2
Vagabond Mk2  2
Zenith  2
Zenith Mk2  1
Intakt Mk2  1
Prometheus Mk2  1
Ictus  1
Termis Mk2  1
Mesmer Mk2  1
Lithus  1
Tyrannos Mk2  1
Laird  1

Re: Your Kidding Right.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'm looking at that link but I honestly don't know what you mean. I see all kinds of robots being used.


Now really I don't mean to offend.

But if you cannot see what I clearly, and I meant to leave it out, what the other players have picked up on. 

Then there is a serious disconnect.

There is ample time for a serious sample sizing, and of what bots are being used, rather not used. 

If you wanted balance, you need to get INTO, yes actually scan down bots on field to understand what is OP and what is underpowered. 

Get involved in the meta, change it tweak it slowly and small.  It will change, then react to that slowly and small.

However the foundation that your building upon now is just messed up.  Its a completely different game style from now to then, not by small margins either.

A good example of this simply, was the speed change.  It was huge, changed things in ways I don't think you even understood.  On paper it seems simple and small, but when you get into actual game play, PVP.  It moves the meta forward, changes it in a good way. 

Not looking to agree with all the balancing changes, but this "***" is SOO off base its THEE definition of nuts.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

New players dont stay because of lack of *** to do.
The ones that do stay end up leaving because of lack of new *** to do.

The ONLY time where both groups leave due to a lack of balancing is when the DEVS screw up *** to begin with.

Im insulted by the devs trying to rehash existing game features under the disguise of re-balancing. I'd rather you learn to do whatever it is that you cant afford to hire and give us new content. Im pretty sure that will be faster than whatever your current business plan is ATM.

Until then, the game is bad and will garner only the same opinion from me until YOU start moving in the right direction to make *** better. As such my $$$ will be spent accordingly.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Op 100% correct in both posts. One hundred percent. Requesting players "prove you wrong" with numbers only further unveils Zoom hyper stubborn-defensiveness.

Between speed patch and this latest one ...its a different game. Calling it "balancing" only reveals your incompetence.

Deleted post incoming.

Sparking to other games

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Rex Amelius wrote:

Op 100% correct in both posts. One hundred percent. Requesting players "prove you wrong" with numbers only further unveils Zoom hyper stubborn-defensiveness.

Between speed patch and this latest one ...its a different game. Calling it "balancing" only reveals your incompetence.

Deleted post incoming.

+1

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

I couldn't care less about this patch, and to be honest you lot should really just suck it up and let it ride. See how things play out in a month or two.

Maybe... just maybe... there's more stuff that's coming down the pipe we're not privy to that this was the first step for?


But all things considered, I think the patch isn't that bad. Ewar aren't  quite the go to bot like it used to be which is a good thing as it's always been way to powerful. Light bots got their rock/paper/scissor in that now you can't just put one on a mech/assault and go afk and make a sammich and wait for backup to come kill what you've tackled. Green bots have always been terrible (except for very special circumstances, like the alliance tournament and having like 10 grophos in a squad), so nothing really different there. You can have a Mesmer mk2 go 120, an artemis that goes 70ish while double demobbed and both of those are pretty sweet.

Keep the patch Zoom, tell alf I said good job, and GET TO WORK ON ADDING NEW CONTENT NAOW. *Cracks whip*

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Wasps Needed Rebalancing.  Tyro was a great go to bot, equally to both other colors, and all of them had viable working builds for nearly all situations.

What is considered "fun" now in speed tanking everything will turn out to be extremely annoying when other counters do not exist. 
If you truly believe that you should have demob immune bots at high speeds with little penalty, then we will never agree on the overall game design.  This has been tried and tested in other games time and time again, it ALWAYS ends in a nerf.  (I can write page after page on just this ONE issue.)
Ewar was nerfed FAR to hard to be considered a balance pass at all.  This was a complete rewrite.

A example of GOOD balancing on the Dev's end were the few grohpo passes that were moving into the game "early" on in the game.  Now this didn't change too much of the meta but it brought it in line where other builds were viable.

You need to get back to that kind of balancing, small range changes were all that were needed, some tweaks of CPU and Reactor to reduce the min max of certain fittings and you will start bringing things into balance.

The real disconnect again, is the fact that this was a terrible patch and rewrite of core PVP mechanics, but rather the fact that the Dev Team doesn't realize the latter is what they have done.

In order to properly balance THIS game you need to be in the PVP community, working out what builds are being used and if certain builds are OP for there weight class in comparison to there counterparts.  To know this you need to know the BUILD's that PVP'ers are utilizing in working fashion and the situations they are using them in.

None of this can be done however if certain realizations are achieved.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Your Kidding Right.

In a effort to fully education everyone on how this should be done, if your going for a complete rebalance.

See the attached Link.

This shows a appropriate way to put forth your idea (Dev's or Players) in a intelligent way.

Notice the clear vision for the bot, and balancing changes are quite clear and in the open.

I am Perpetuum.

22 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-12-19 05:29:34)

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Perpetuum wrote:

In a effort to fully education everyone on how this should be done, if your going for a complete rebalance.

See the attached Link.

This shows a appropriate way to put forth your idea (Dev's or Players) in a intelligent way.

Notice the clear vision for the bot, and balancing changes are quite clear and in the open.

This is so dead accurate an illustrated example of what the Devs should be doing in this game. Perpetuum, despite some his trolling, deserves some type of special forces sniper medal of honor for this perfect wrecking shot.

Dev Zoom. Read that link.That is how you communicate with a community. That is how you approach balancing. Unfortunately step one requires that you understand your own game and how the bots are used/can be used/should be used. I fear you can't get passed step one, much less communicate an approach to balancing the way illustrated in that link. You guys just sledge hammer and hope for the best.

Sparking to other games

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Nooodlzs wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

ok, because the w(h)ining PvP faction suddenly runs only a smaller selection of bots, "teaches" their new lapdogs whats the "best to use" ... that list is very representative.

Actually it is, comparing the two, the distribution of bots being used has dynamically changed to a few FOTM bots, whereas Octobers listings were a lot more varied.

What it looks like to me is firstly, the arbalest mk2 is way out there for whatever reason and needs to be sorted. So let's move on from that. If I look at the next group I have eight bots that have participated in at least half as many kills as the bot in second place. Looking at Oct numbers, the top bot is almost exactly the same as the one in second, this is better, but if I look at how many bots have at least half the number of kills as the first placed bot, the answer is four.

So if you could fix the arbalest mk 2 issue, you'll end up with ten bots being used at least half as much as the number one bot. Compared to four in October. There may be more 'unusable' boots now, I didn't look at the figures for the least used bots.

Finally, by the numbers, it seems the goal of making smaller bots more powerful has been achieved, while we still see larger bots in the commonly used group.

24 (edited by Celebro 2014-12-19 15:14:11)

Re: Your Kidding Right.

Perpetuum wrote:

In a effort to fully education everyone on how this should be done, if your going for a complete rebalance.

See the attached Link.

This shows a appropriate way to put forth your idea (Dev's or Players) in a intelligent way.

Notice the clear vision for the bot, and balancing changes are quite clear and in the open.


Then again CCP Rise was also a long term Eve PVP PLAYER. +1

RIP PERPETUUM

25 (edited by Jita 2014-12-19 16:05:46)

Re: Your Kidding Right.

This is what people were trying to get at from the other thread. What is the vision for assaults? Where do we see them fitting in?

The thing with Eve is it has such specialisation. Four different types of cruiser, frigate etc. we could have that here. We wouldn't need new art, or even much effort it just takes vision. There is nothing stopping the Devs having proto standard and mk2 do different aspects using the same hull. It's that kind of change and balance that I had hoped for and why I was so bitterly disappointed by the last patch.

What would be fantastic is if that vision was expanded across the game and across the weapon tiers, it would totally transform industry, PVE  PvP and really revitalise the game.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."