101

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Perceptor wrote:

I don't think we can help then. Each change in this thread just rolls back each aspect of the patch as a whole.

I agree.  They dont get it. they never will.  They think the patch was great.  Well good for them. the 31 people logging in everyday should speak volumes to them. But again it fals on deaf ears.  Why do you all try so hard to tell the devs things but they wont listen. Its a dead game. Let it die. So many others out there to play and a few upcoming ones that are coming.  If the devs want to stick to there guns.  Great.  They can play with each other.

102 (edited by Burial 2014-12-16 20:04:05)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Current playerbase's decline has nothing to do with the balancing patch. Newbies don't care.

Greenlight influx failed because of boring PVE. Full Steam launch influx failed because of boring PVE. You can camp the same spawn or do the same 3 missions so long before you've had enough.

Living on Beta used to provide some excitement but it hasn't been worth it for years.

Want the playerbase to grow? Fix Beta reward and improve PVE.

103 (edited by Syndic 2014-12-16 20:25:56)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

I'm sure patch did wonders to retain all the bright-eyed newbies who rolled green. lol lol lol

But PVE and Beta are atrocious and have needed fixing for a long time, that's true.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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Re: Robot balancing discussion

I would rolback the patch and start working from there. You dont want to hear that, but we dont want to point every single change one by one.

- Bring bonuses back to 5% per lvl
- Make them racial again.
- Nerf assaults reactor, i shouldnt be able to fit 3 medium plates easily. Not sure if they deserve an extra leg slot either.

Those are the biggest diversity killers for me. Maybe this matter is off the topic but i would like to know why active armor tanking is so bad.

105 (edited by Aye Pod 2014-12-17 05:52:44)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Burial wrote:

Current playerbase's decline has nothing to do with the balancing patch. Newbies don't care.

Greenlight influx failed because of boring PVE. Full Steam launch influx failed because of boring PVE. You can camp the same spawn or do the same 3 missions so long before you've had enough.

Living on Beta used to provide some excitement but it hasn't been worth it for years.

Want the playerbase to grow? Fix Beta reward and improve PVE.

As much as it pains me to see a Burial comment that isnt politically charged, I have to agree. Game is fun until you have done everything many times over.

I miss the days when trial acct arkes would ping on gates, miners would log out, combats would log in and pvp would happen.  What a shame the amount we have regressed since 2012.

I think everyone @ AC should look up Star Wars Galaxies and see how a large dev team with a decent budget did things wrong and ruined a great game. Dont make the same mistake by letting arrogance trump common sense.

106 (edited by Burial 2014-12-17 16:25:43)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Compared run-of-the-mill light, assault and mech fits(amp, weapon tuners, lwf, resists/plates/shield tank). All equipment is T4, all extensions 10. Effective buffer is roughly calculated from armor and shield buffer(if there is) while taking resistances and absorption into consideration. Sustained tank is armor or shield repair/regen per second multiplied by resistances and absorption. Results:

                  Prometheus MK2         Yagel MK2            Castel MK2

Speed:            122-131 km/h           126-133km/h          121-126km/h
Damage:           115dps                 120dps               105dps
Range:            215+120                176+96               234
Buffer tank:      1700-2660dmg           1440-2400dmg         2500dmg
Sustained tank:   20dps                  23dps                23dps

Compared against each other, they seem to be roughly OK, but what’s their edge over the assaults? Speed fit assault has similar speed to speed fit light combat. Light combat has 30% weaker tank, 45% less damage and 20% less range.

Sustained armor tank on a light combat bot is a joke.

                  Baphomet MK2           Arbalest MK2         Waspish MK2

Speed:            111-127 km/h           112-128km/h          122km/h
Damage:           212dps                 193dps               169dps
Range:            257+130                211+96               270
Buffer tank:      2370-5470dmg           2000-5128dmg         3750dmg
Sustained tank:   18dps                  18dps                18dps (85 w/ injector)

Yagel and Prometheus have the same amount of head slots. Due to the additional head slot on the Baph, it has about 10% better damage than Arbalest and 17% more range. Baphomet slaughters the Arbalest in every way.

Currently the Arbalest has the demob resistance edge and Baphomet the best DPS and range. Waspish doesn’t have anything.

If you go with the suggestion and add demob resistance to all of the assaults, then Arbalest needs more damage(adjust bonuses or add a head slot) and Waspish more range(or something else).

                  Artemis MK2            Kain MK2             Tyrannos MK2

Speed:            100-114 km/h           102-116km/h          109-114km/h
Damage:           217dps                 232dps               155dps
Range:            488+130                403+96               468
Buffer tank:      6100-12300dmg          5128+1140dmg         13100dmg
Sustained tank:   55dps                  69dps                65dps (156 w/ injector)

Added the mechs for comparison's sake. All have long range guns.

107

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Arbalast does have cocknadart but waspish is woeful.

I think the speed buff that was across the board was poor for the reason's above - the speed differential between assaults lights and ewar should be more distinct imo.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

108 (edited by Burial 2014-12-17 16:56:32)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

It's funny how terrible the lights bots are.

On a Yagel MK2 with 2 armor repair tuners and 2 small reps, you can get only about 50-60 dps sustained tank. The same Yagel MK2 with weapon tuners shoots 120 dps. There's just no way of making it work. It can't even shoot it's guns without running out of accumulator, let alone shoot and run 2 small reppers. For the Yagel to work, they'd need to tweak it's accumulator pool, make the small repairer slightly more effective(90-100 per cycle) and consume way less accumulator(30-35 per cycle).

The Castel MK2 is the only light that's the closes of being combat-effective. It has decent damage and could have decent sustained tank if it were able to fit guns, shield and small injector without running out of reactor. With maxed skills, it's about 30 reactor short from T2P small injector and 40 from T4. If it were able to get the injector in, it'd do 105dps and have around 80dps sustained tank.

The Prometheus MK2 doesn't stand out with anything. It's slightly better than Yagel in some cases, but they both are trash. It's supposed to be a buffer tanker and it gets the resist bonuses to complement it, but the armor buffer itself is very similar to a Yagel. There's no way of fitting two light plates on it without making it slow as a snail. Possible boost could be increasing the armor and adding more mass so it could add more plates than the other two.

They all need more speed.

109 (edited by Annihilator 2014-12-17 15:58:14)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

light bots need massive speed boost tbh, together with a general reduction of locktime.

the usage of light bots for "Tackle only" is the most prominent balance issue reagarding bot usage.
even with maxed specialisation into light bots and T4 equip, you cannot compare to the overwhelming difference a maxed extension t4 equipped heavy mech has.

accumulator should be balanced towards "capstable repair" if no other module is active. so out-of-combat recovery is possible.
The minimum requirement of a t4 lwf just to be able to run on par with a fully plated but lwf fitted heavy mech is problematic too.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

110 (edited by Burial 2014-12-17 16:15:31)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Big contributor to the issue is that small guns almost always fight in the S-demob range. Once something small is caught, it's dead. A Zenith MK2 gets 150km/h speed and close to 600m s-demob range.. GG.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

This is like trying to explain why you don't like a piece of art by using Hungarian math.

Everything is not about the math.

RIP PERPETUUM

112

Re: Robot balancing discussion

REVERT the PATCH!

I cant say anything, after I spend some more time on testserver!
You throw out the baby with the bathwater or what!

BUT I still like the Assault chnages in the patch, but you just dont see how will it be going!!! If you can go with heavay 100 kmph.

This ALL beacuse of +36 speedboost, beqacseu of PLANT ONLINE (more plants, more HP on plants), and because  of NEW BALANCE!

REVERT the PATCH and give the assaults boosts!

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Robot balancing discussion

More than that this is only the first tier of terrible. Once demob proof goes out the window people will use the stupid amount of reactor and slot layout of assaults to do something else broken like double aux accumulator shield fits.

That's before you start to talk about what the damage reduction did to racial weaponry.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Can we take away the 50% yield increase yet for miners and harvesters.

I really like this patch!  We should have another balancing patch, like balancing Industry and production by changing ALL refining bonuses of the extension from 5 to 2!  This will add great diversity to the market place and discourage all those lazy production guys from doing the same old routine!  Also can we have time and efficiency for factory extensions moved from 5 per level to 2?

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Arbitrary unknown fits that conform to produce the desired result aren't relevant.

What people are actually fitting and fighting with is very relevant.

That's where the killboard stats come in, and what that other dude in the other topic said;

There is ample time for a serious sample sizing, and of what bots are being used, rather not used.

If you wanted balance, you need to get INTO, yes actually scan down bots on field to understand what is OP and what is underpowered.

Get involved in the meta, change it tweak it slowly and small.  It will change, then react to that slowly and small.

P.S.

Remember when I told you in the testing forum that nerfing EW/EnWar will result in tuner-spam and plated heavies? big_smile

I told you so! #9

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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116 (edited by Burial 2014-12-17 18:18:48)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

1. Demob resistance module.
2. Add demob resistance to all assaults.
2. Make light combats stronger(read my post).
3. Add 10% optimal range bonus to Waspish.
4. Add 10% DPS bonus to Arbalest.
5. Add 10 CPU and 50 reactor to Tyrannos.
5. Move bot damage bonuses back to racial weaponry.
6. Remove 2 Misc slots from Seth and Mesmer.

= better than previously.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Ok, so as we have found, the prototype variants of armor plates are close to 50% lighter than the normal variants for some reason. Normally the prototype versions are supposed to be only 25% lighter (though this might be revised as well, as that seems a bit much too). This will be fixed in the next patch.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Zoom
have you ever noticed that medium auxillery accumulators are almost pointless on anything bigger then an assault, but overpowered when you fit it on anything smaller then a mech (get the hint?)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Robot balancing discussion

+1 to most of what Burial has been posting.

Also, have we considered creating a factor for modifying locktime between bot classes(maybe based on surface area.. or some other attribute)?
I might be reading into the intentions behind the patch and some of the other discussion, but if you want to make light and assaults more viable on the battlefield: why not make them harder to lock onto?
Yes this is right out of Eve but it works really well at giving smaller bots to land hits/lay down ewar before getting popped. 

It could be a modifier on current locktime so two bots of the same class (or srf. area, or mass, or ...) will have F=1.0 to each-other.  Whereas lets say a small ewar bot against some heavy mech might have F=0.5, and the H.Mech will only have F=1.5.  With both locktimes at 10s, the light bot could lock the heavy with 10s before the heavy locks back.  Keep in mind this is in addition to range, extensions that modify locktime directly, etc. etc.
(This being the extreme ends of the spectrum.)

What this helps with is fleet composition variety and encourages even squads that are mostly mechs to also include the smaller tacklers, ewar, and counter-small bot assaults.  This exists to some degree, but the solution of patching up lights and assaults with more armor or range, etc, makes them perhaps more powerful singularly than their class was intended.  Nerfing others down to match doesn't make sense.  So maybe the solution is a game mechanic or bot attribute that levels this out between classes. 

With faster lock times, light bots are guaranteed (under 1:1 circumstances) to land 'hits' against larger bot classes.

Yes, this too can grow into a whole set of modules and extensions.  Improve your locktime, lock-modifier, ability for others to lock you, ability to lock others etc. etc. You get the idea.

As for affecting PVE, I don't see it being an issue.  If anything it makes the player want to fit an equivalently sized bot for the assignment to maximize speed and turnaround time (Adding risk! and Excitement!  Oh Ah!).  And makes grinding with mechs slower (oh no, potential whining, oh noo), but no less effective (Whining averted! Huzzah!)

TL;DR
Modifier on Lock-time based (mostly) on bot class differentials.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Burial wrote:

Current playerbase's decline has nothing to do with the balancing patch. Newbies don't care.

Greenlight influx failed because of boring PVE. Full Steam launch influx failed because of boring PVE. You can camp the same spawn or do the same 3 missions so long before you've had enough.

Living on Beta used to provide some excitement but it hasn't been worth it for years.

Want the playerbase to grow? Fix Beta reward and improve PVE.

Yeah, I totally agree with this statement, and although I posted it in another thread and haven't bothered reading any of this, I'd just like to say that I think the patch was all in all a pretty descent balance change and that regardless what bitter people (vile) say, I think it's a step in the right direction. If all the people that don't like the patch *** off forever it's still a drop in the bucket that have left for the reasons burial posted.

Let's end this discussion, and don't focus even one more second of your time developing on your days off from your real job and get to work on the things I quoted from burial.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Increase mass of all plates by +50%
Decrease mass of protos from regular versions by -25% (instead of -50% as they are now)

Don't make any other changes until this goes live.

About tuning stacking:
This was never an issue before the patch, it only showed itself now because you can get 120+ kph Arbalests that are full of buffer tank and undemobable.  No need for other mods with that kind of build. 

Again, we have had 4+ years of this game in existence and tuning stacking only became a "problem" now.  It is only a symptom not the actual issue.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Burial wrote:

Fix Beta reward and improve PVE.


I disagree, for those that are filthy rich (like -77-), beta has little value.  For relatively new players (1 year or less) beta is wildly valuable.  NSE even gave me stats on the NIC they make mining EPI vs any other mineral.  For them it's VERY valuable.

Other things that are valuable are SAP loot and mission standings (and the tokens that come with it).

I guess once you have stacks of EPI, faction ammo, and cortexes the value drops for you, it only makes sense.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Lastly, do something about the trees.  There are too many and too densely packed where it is killing:
1) the long range and
2) the rapid-over island running fights

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Burial wrote:

Fix Beta reward and improve PVE.


I disagree, for those that are filthy rich (like -77-), beta has little value.  For relatively new players (1 year or less) beta is wildly valuable.  NSE even gave me stats on the NIC they make mining EPI vs any other mineral.  For them it's VERY valuable.

Other things that are valuable are SAP loot and mission standings (and the tokens that come with it).

I guess once you have stacks of EPI, faction ammo, and cortexes the value drops for you, it only makes sense.

The only way of removing Epriton from the circulation is getting bots and modules blown up. The part that makes no sense is that once a corporation has enough Epriton, there's less reasons to risk it on Betas.

125 (edited by Stranger Danger 2014-12-18 16:42:45)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Look, a patch like this was....it too large, too drastic, and changed too much stuff around.  For a time based progression game I think the concept of large sweeping balance changes in one patch is a horrible idea....you changed, overnight, completely, things that some people have spent months and years training into.

I don't think people were against balancing, however, it should have been done in very small incremental steps to allow feedback along the way.

Another approach that is the vinegar of development, nerfs, seems to be preferred over the honey version of buffs. You've chose to develop with vinegar over honey and are curious why people are disgusted? Prior to the patch some bots were more preferred however the pool of acceptable bots was larger, now its a small pool of preferred bots, like before, with a near non existent pool of acceptable bots, leaving a lot of pilots who in the past might have trained for a vital role bot class seeing all of their time based progression progress net them one bot they can use that they were able to use day one....that pisses people off.

I was all for making assaults more powerful, I was all for some slight balance changes...this was far too much, far too fast, without the developers really understanding the player mindset and how the players play the game.  Math and statistics don't tell the true story.  Understanding why people used things in the manner that they did use them, and why they didn't use other things was missing from this balance patch, and I feel the only thing looked at was hard numbers.


When people tell you zoom to "revert the patch" it has more than the face value meaning.  The balance and how the game worked before was more entertaining to YOUR REMAINING players than the current version.  The issue with the game is playerbase, patches like this wont get you more players, perhaps content will.  Perhaps you should balance back a lot of the changes to try to keep things in line with how they were before, even if it means the game has strong EWAR vs the dps slug fest it is now.  Then put those efforts into creating some meaningful pve content and balancing beta and gamma....two things your playerbase has been begging for....for years now...

Keep your current playerbase happy man even if it means putting off some long term goals on balancing in favor of developing new and better content....the latter is desperately needed, balance wasn't.

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