Topic: Robot balancing discussion

Ok, let's do this from the beginning.

Please post robot balancing issues that you think we have, BACKED BY NUMBERS.

If you can post fittings to emphasize your argument, even better.
If you have a suggestion for a solution, it's welcome.

Please don't post feedback that only consists of:
- xy is useless/obsolete
- xy has "some issues"
- xy is OP
- xy caused many unseen problems

...because these won't bring us any closer to a solution.

Also please don't post:
- insults against devs
- insults against other players
- corp discussion
- revert the patch, devs are destroying the game, etc.

The topic will be heavily moderated and posts violating the rules will be removed even if parts of it is valid feedback.

2 (edited by Annihilator 2014-12-15 16:30:05)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Blue Assaults with armorplates + lwf are to fast, while having demob immunity, but beeing able to demob others - and having lots of hitpoints on their own.

it doesn't matter what combination of armorplates you use - may it be 3x T4 lights, 3x T4p lights or a combination of T2p medium + 2x T2,
those assaults are always running on-par with much lighter and weaker fits of mechs or ewars.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Anni: do you have a suggestion? Nerf assault speed? Nerf lwf? Boost demob? Make T2P more expensive? Something else?

4 (edited by Burial 2014-12-15 17:22:30)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

The game needs demob immune bots. Zenith MK2/Vagabond MK2 goes 150km/h and has close to 600m SHORT demob range. <-- Overpowered to the max. GG.

How slow do you think the Arbalest MK2 should be if fully T2P fit with demob immunity?

If you reduce the bonus to 2% per level, it's going to end up somewhere around 130km/h with speed nexus and have near immunity(55%). Speed-fit Mesmer MK2 can get over 130km/h speed; how much slower should the Arbalest be?

Re: Robot balancing discussion

For the zenith to do that you need RSAs, and ewar nexus both at 10.  So your comparing a fleet to 1 bot.

6 (edited by Annihilator 2014-12-15 17:01:40)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

the stupidity in this has always been the demob resist on armor plates. without lwf, you have been already so low that it didn't matter that much,
with LWF you could not reach demob immunity unless putting so many armor plates into your robot so your final speed advantage became NIL (if you even had the legslots to fit the necessary 4 plates + lwf)

with the incerease of base mass of assaults, and increase of leg slots AND ontop the demob resists on arbalest, all those factors are neutralised.

you could:
1. increase the mass of armor plates to even more absurd numbers
2. remove the demob resists from plates and make it into a seperate module like ECCM or Reactor-sealings
3. redo your mass/speed formula again to something that takes into account that some robots have much less slots then other
4. give Arbalest the repair bonus back for basic robotics and replace the "range bonus" for combat spec. with the demob resist.
5. Nerf S-Demobs range extended instead of giving out more resists. Just compare it with the supposed L-Demob that NOONE EVER USES.

which one would you prefer?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Robot balancing discussion

I know your saying that we shouldn't say revert the patch but that's where all the problems came from. We could spend the time explaining the couple of dozen issues that this generated but it would be missing the point. The fundamentals of the patch were adding demob resistance bonus' that cause issues, reducing the effectiveness of racial bonus' which caused problems etc

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

8 (edited by Burial 2014-12-15 17:04:35)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

@Ville: Yes, that's right, but it doesn't matter. If something is possible, players do it.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Jita: I only keep your post so I can reply.

Those saying "revert the patch" assume that everything was balanced before, but that's simply not true.

It won't happen so please don't derail the topic with it.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Anni: the idea of #2 came up internally as well, so we could definitely do that.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

It's a pretty solid idea, needs testing. Remove the -demob resist from LWF too then.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Tyrannos needs more reactor and it's pretty sweet.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Ok, you didn't like that suggestion, I'll try again.

Firstly NO bot should be undemobable, it negates a role that newer players can easily get into with not much ep, demob resistance though, is something that could be implemented.

Green bots

Waspish, of all the assaults the waspish needs the most skills, is the slowest by quite a margin, lowest damage and it's range bonus made it useful, now it is out ranged by both other factions and slower by far, the only advantage it has left is LOS negating missiles but with the terrain/ forest changes that is not an advantage any more.

More to come xD.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Jita wrote:

I know your saying that we shouldn't say revert the patch but that's where all the problems came from. We could spend the time explaining the couple of dozen issues that this generated but it would be missing the point. The fundamentals of the patch were adding demob resistance bonus' that cause issues, reducing the effectiveness of racial bonus' which caused problems etc

Agreed.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Nooodlzs wrote:

Waspish, of all the assaults the waspish needs the most skills, is the slowest by quite a margin, lowest damage and it's range bonus made it useful, now it is out ranged by both other factions and slower by far, the only advantage it has left is LOS negating missiles but with the terrain/ forest changes that is not an advantage any more.

This is why it would be nice if you could back this up by actual fittings, because "slowest", "lowest damage", "outranged" are all statements that heavily depend on the modules used and what you use the robot for.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

doesn't matter what your fit... if you put weapons on a waspish, then its slow. Missile launcher have the highest mass of all weapons.

probably one of the reasons why "castels" are nothing but running shieldbubbles with demobs.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Well define "slow", if I use the same standard fit on all assaults then the difference is about 5 kph.

18 (edited by Nooodlzs 2014-12-15 18:02:51)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well define "slow", if I use a the same standard fit on all assaults then the difference is about 5 kph.

If you are using the same standard fit on waspish as the other 2 factions, you are doing it wrong the waspish is shield tanked

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Nooodlzs wrote:

If you are using the same standard fit on waspish as the other 2 factions, you are doing it wrong the waspish is shield tanked

Hence why I asked for actual numbers and fittings, because for all I know you could be comparing extremities.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

my advice on plates, there is the most a problem about T2P med plates!

you can use 3 T2P on Arba mk2 EASILY, and that is the problem. If you make T2P more expensive to fit you are forced more adaptations, lose your T4 guns. (What is used to be, I used that .)

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

21 (edited by Nooodlzs 2014-12-15 18:20:49)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:
Nooodlzs wrote:

If you are using the same standard fit on waspish as the other 2 factions, you are doing it wrong the waspish is shield tanked

Hence why I asked for actual numbers and fittings, because for all I know you could be comparing extremities.

I understand that but cannot log in ATM to give you figures as I am away from home but it is obvious that from being a viable assault the waspish has become shunned in preference to the other 2 factions which are now FAR more viable in that role, the only thing that did make it viable was that range bonus, nothing else.

Another point I should make is that the undemobable bonus that the other 2 factions gain from plates are useless on the waspish as it is shield tanked, yeah you could fit plates (lol) but then it becomes slower than a scarab (now that is an exaggeration) xD.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Aight I'll give it a shot

- The speed penalty for equipping plates is too low (heavy with 4 plates+frame, immune to demob with 12k armor but going 85-95 easy for example)
- The Neut/ECM tunings were the root of the problem (25% buff for FREE) that resulted in Ictus and Zenith/Vaga getting gutted (why would I bother spending a minute neuting or RNG ewaring someone when I can jump in a heavy with 4 plates & frame and short-range guns?)
- There is no drawback to stacking weapon tunings (why bother with anything when I can max-tune short-range guns and run into people?)
- Waspish is worthless because even without any plates its slower then arbalest (racial enemy!), range is ~equal (vs racial enemy!), the shield tank is laughable at best (as an arb pilot I've 2-shot wasps), and as a natural 'kiter' with weak but constant dps it's doubly fooked over by the rampart plantlife and general terribility of your terrain-loading.
- Tyrannos is worthless because it's a shield tanker and shields are obliterated by tuningstacking
- Gropho is worthless because it's a shield tanker and hits like a wet noodle plus obliterated by tuningstacking
- Ictus can be renamed to right-click-recycle because it's cute recharge bonus works great when fighting bots that stack tunings and magnedart people in the balls + doesn't neut for anything relevant
- Zenith barely reaches 600-700m with suppression with nexus, when there's a tuningstacked heavy going in the 100's towards it those 600-700m's melt down to DEAD pretty fast
- Vaga completely countered by 1 ECCM on Mechs (ergo immune to demob, ewar, nobody is dumb enough to neut anyway)

On racial balance;
Waspish is weakest because Arbalest is unstoppable.
Artemis is strongest because Gropho (natural enemy) is weakest so nobody fields it.
Seth is strongest because Gropho is terrible (Gropho can either shoot like a noodle and no tank, or tank like an Ictus and throw popcorn at people for DPS - all other heavies can boost tank & DPS EQUALLY)

Alternatives like Bapho/Kain/Mesmer are possible, but why go for average when you can go for min-max?


TL;DR

You "balanced" the game into weaptuning stacked mechs and heavies with 3-4 plates + frame, all other playstyles are invalid.

The pain-free solution would be to roll back the patch, identify whose feedback led to this terribility that happened to Ictus/Zenith/Vaga, and address the real source of the problem.

THE GODDAMN ECM/ENWAR TUNINGS.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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Re: Robot balancing discussion

I know you are looking for actual fittings and numbers. But I just want to chime in and ask that things not change too rapidly, if possible.

Re: Robot balancing discussion

To effectively tank a gropho:  you need shield plus rechargers + shield hardeners.
To effectively tank Mesmer/Seth:  you need only leg slots.

The Ictus is plaqued by LOS of too many plants.  Just like dps turrets from Old gamma days...  Neuts hit hard because you have to make every shot count.  Just like you, the developer, said about dps turrets in gamma base.  The Ictus need to make every hit count.

Waspish have less leg slot but need head and leg slots to make tank, sad

25 (edited by Burial 2014-12-15 18:36:34)

Re: Robot balancing discussion

Zenith and Vaga are fine.

Zenith suppressors vs Mech: 112 Hw vs 120 rF = 93% land. +1 ECCM to mech and the figure falls to 57%.
Vaga ECM vs Mech: 67 Hw vs 120 rF = 55%. +1 ECCM to mech and jamms land 34%.

Tests against a mech, no tuners or anything. Against a heavy the situation is way worse.

If ECM gets more strength then suppressor needs to be weaker. One suppressor takes away -110% locking speed and one sensor amp only gives ~40%. Where's the sense in that?