1 (edited by Kayin Prime 2014-12-10 17:28:33)

Topic: Strategic Logging Off

Logging off on the battle field is really designed as a fail safe for a connection failure right?

This seems to be 'abused' and the ways it's being abused creates advantages to whoever abuses it first. The only real balance to the abuse is to abuse it yourself and hope you get lucky.

1. Logging off effectively simulates docking anywhere in the game. The only downside is you can't do anything else with this account while docked right? Well having a separate account pretty much nullifies the penalty of this. I think I only know 1 person in the entire game with only 1 account.  It's quite clear this is happening in Alesbale - by everybody on all sides.

2. Quick escape from a gank when you can 'arrange' 2 minutes of safety. Also clearly happening on Alesbale. I can't count the number of times I've had to scout a logged off termis back to station.. and subsequently face checked a logged off fleet next to the terminal.  But seriously, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be if I ganked a mining fleet and 3 of them 'got away' by logging off while I was busy killing the others.  No, they all should die equal terrible deaths and the field container of epriton should be lost.

3. Logging off detector bots in strategic locations significantly lowers the risk that detector bot is taking by being a detector in a hostile environment. I can camp the same location with a detector + assault  (2 bots)  in order to eliminate that detector whenever it logs in, but I have to camp that spot - logged in and paying attention - the entire time. Sometimes hours. I have tried this and quite frankly I can't just sit there and hope the person isn't asleep for 8 hours. Not to mention my detector + assault are likely dead because the alarm is raised by the enemy detector to the logged off fleet next to it.  It's a bigger advantage to whoever camps the strategic spots first.

I'm all for cloaking techniques and laying traps. I'm actually *very* in favor of traps and close escapes. Though I wish the mechanic wasn't exploiting a game fail safe.   It doesn't seem like good game design.  Signal maskers are a pretty immature manifestation of what should exist.  We really need something like a high powered nexus mask. It allows counter play but can still accomplish the same result.

As for what to do when a connection fails. Drastically increase the penalty for logging back in to allow counter play for anyone in the vicinity when a log-in occurs. Not enough to forfeit the bot of whoever's connection failed, but enough so that I don't blink and suddenly Mesmers.. Mesmers everywhere!  Maybe something like add syndicate protection for 10 minutes on the bot logging in but allow movement and restrict weapon usage until syndicate protection wears off.  And prevent logging off when there is a PvP flagged bot within 5000 meters or something, or at least employ a much longer 'bot on the field' time. 

Inb4 "QQ Kayin that's the game!  eat it!  Terrible post!  How dare you!!"   etc..   blah blah.   Shut up. Strategy shouldn't involve exploiting fail safe mechanics and you know it.   Create proper game mechanics to employ proper strategies.

2 (edited by Perceptor 2014-12-10 17:44:45)

Re: Strategic Logging Off

Your assuming we have devs who give a *** about risk and reward.

You post a lot of problems that you see but no solutions. Let's hear a solution.

The way I see it you have a couple:

Logging out on terrain leaves your bot still there - this is closest to the lore and the harshest

You have some way of detecting something logged out such as a marker on the radar

You have to actively hunt those logged out - something like using an artifact charge to find the spot and an intrusion charge to tell you how long they are logged off for

Consider also what happens when you accidentally disconnect

Find a solution, get the community behind it and you have about a 30% chance it will be implemented in the next two years.

Re: Strategic Logging Off

The 2nd to last paragraph contained possible solutions...

Re: Strategic Logging Off

Something to keep in mind: any penalty/effect that we would put on after logging in on the terrain would be also applied when you teleport between zones and when you deploy from a terminal, because we can't make a difference there, you enter the zone the same way in all cases.

Re: Strategic Logging Off

Now imagine if All the stations didn't have locks on them.  Your alliance headquarters would have a scout inside the terminal completely safe.  When someone left the channel they just login the ghank bot in the station.  Undock and kill you, OR if they couldn't they kill you they would simply just sit there till you forced them to dock up.  Then they would have to sit under a station flagged for 5 minutes and you know how terrible that is smile

Re: Strategic Logging Off

Crusader wrote:

Now imagine if All the stations didn't have locks on them.  Your alliance headquarters would have a scout inside the terminal completely safe.  When someone left the channel they just login the ghank bot in the station.  Undock and kill you, OR if they couldn't they kill you they would simply just sit there till you forced them to dock up.  Then they would have to sit under a station flagged for 5 minutes and you know how terrible that is smile

I don't really mind people camping me, killing me, etc as long as there's counter play. We *could* trap them after they PvP flag and undock multiple mechs. We're all right there and then you end up with base fights.  That's more annoying than it is unbalanced.

My issue with this is that it's not a game mechanic. Its exploiting a fail safe that only exists because of the real world.

7 (edited by Crusader 2014-12-10 18:23:11)

Re: Strategic Logging Off

And now Kayin Prime, you and your alliance is discovering the effects of the detector nerf and WHY detectors where put in this game to begin with.  Its a shame that players who lived in fortified Gamma and never wanted to learn how to live on a Beta island and secure it made such a stink on the forums about how OP detectors where.  Sadly they never lived on Beta or understood what scouting was.  Those same people flock to the forums and make grand suggestions about mechanics and their uses with not even an ounce of experience/knowledge in the subject matter.

But I am not Angel too; however, if(edit) my suggestion of the test server would have been heeded you would not be experiencing this smile.  Because the methods that I clearly pointed out to the developers are being used at this very instance.  It's kind of like a broken record of I told you so.  Because literally, I *** TOLD YOU SO.

Re: Strategic Logging Off

DEV Zoom wrote:

Something to keep in mind: any penalty/effect that we would put on after logging in on the terrain would be also applied when you teleport between zones and when you deploy from a terminal, because we can't make a difference there, you enter the zone the same way in all cases.

You enter the zone the same way but where you enter can be used to apply specific penalties and bonuses. You're telling me the server doesn't know where a player enters?  And it can't possibly know or learn where a player exits or what the conditions around the player are when he/she exits?

Re: Strategic Logging Off

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … it/page/2/

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -logg-out/

You need to read some of these in your spare time for the lolz.

10 (edited by Kayin Prime 2014-12-10 18:49:33)

Re: Strategic Logging Off

ITT known issue is known,  no *** given,   mostly because application has no concept of bot locale on login. I officially volunteer to fix this for you guys.

Meanwhile Crusader

Weak detection skills are only part of the issue. I can't scout what isn't there. No wonder people are butthurt paranoid about spies. It's the only way to find out anything about the enemy forces.

-K

Re: Strategic Logging Off

He's just flapping his mouth because he will do anything, say anything or be anything just to be an idiot.

Detectors can't see what's logged off, nor can anyone competent lose one or even get spotted vs someone without decent skills.

The point is even if you had a good detector all you will see is the enemy detector. Your not risking much.

Re: Strategic Logging Off

The level of butt hurtness makes me smile every time.

http://tinyurl.com/mkdvvmr

Re: Strategic Logging Off

Crusader wrote:

The level of butt hurtness makes me smile every time.

http://tinyurl.com/mkdvvmr

See?

Re: Strategic Logging Off

So what are you actually talking about?

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Strategic Logging Off

+1 this needs to be addressed.  We should add a 5 min NO SHOOT timer for people when they log on also, remove Syndicate protection from Beta and Gamma logouts

Re: Strategic Logging Off

syndicate protection could be removed from game alltogether with a rather simple change...
its implentation was a bandaid-fix long time ago.

perhaps with the new client...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Strategic Logging Off

I think a timer that would prevent the player from shooting for a long period of time after logging back in would prevent logging off - ganking ABUSE. The system functions well in a rainbow-filled utopia, but in this ruthless world where people think you're stupid when you play fair, it gets misused. Now when you happily do your stuff, prepare for a sap or mining and get 10 people logging in your island, now that's cheating.

Now before you get any funny ideas, I would be much happier if you got your bots vulnerable to be destroyed when you get dced than to suffer this nonsense from wannabe pvpers that run whenever they dont have 2x the bots we have.

Re: Strategic Logging Off

That's some quality posting right there. Personally I'd be fine with a 5 minute no shoot timer when you log in to a PvP island.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Strategic Logging Off

actually, all it needs, would be a defined deployment sequence that is played after the client has loaded all data.

why do logintraps work? well, because the one logging in has the reaction-time advantage. He gets a syndicate protection until his first module activation or movement order, while noone can lock him during that time.
If he has a fast computer (or should i say "not the slowest machine) the time between his robot spawning on terrain for the "victim" to see, and the ability for the "droped" player is a few seconds.

a propper spawn-animation that starts the moment the scene has finished loading on the client side, without a syndicate protection time -> et voilà, the one ingame can see that someone is deploying on terrain, and has time to run, while the one logging in may be invulnerable while deplyoing, but cannot see or do anything before the animation is finished.

i would do that for all teleport/deploy situations and get rid of "syndicate protection timer". Of course on-terrain deploy animation would take longer then at a teleport or terminal.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Strategic Logging Off

Annihilator wrote:

actually, all it needs, would be a defined deployment sequence that is played after the client has loaded all data.

why do logintraps work? well, because the one logging in has the reaction-time advantage. He gets a syndicate protection until his first module activation or movement order, while noone can lock him during that time.
If he has a fast computer (or should i say "not the slowest machine) the time between his robot spawning on terrain for the "victim" to see, and the ability for the "droped" player is a few seconds.

a propper spawn-animation that starts the moment the scene has finished loading on the client side, without a syndicate protection time -> et voilà, the one ingame can see that someone is deploying on terrain, and has time to run, while the one logging in may be invulnerable while deplyoing, but cannot see or do anything before the animation is finished.

i would do that for all teleport/deploy situations and get rid of "syndicate protection timer". Of course on-terrain deploy animation would take longer then at a teleport or terminal.

Anni you do post some crap sometimes. His long do you think a spawn animation would take them?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Strategic Logging Off

as long as necessary.

did you play firefall? spawn animation of a thumper or chosen droppod?

30 seconds @ 100 kph would be 900m distance someone could cover in a relative slow bot.

compared to 3minutes not beeing able to do shoot for someone who just had a disconnect in middle of a battle like someone already suggested...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Strategic Logging Off

I know its something that would be nice, I've often thought when you log off you could dig a hole and bury yourself like a beetle :-)

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Strategic Logging Off

im thinking more about something similar to existing FX.

like gamma buildings build-up that was insipred by games like total annihilation or supreme commander. (or ultimately TRON)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Strategic Logging Off

I like the idea of not being able to shoot on login to a PvP zone, but this causes an issue in the instance of a Disconnect during battle. Let's face it, disconnects are not uncommon in the current state, so a secondary conditional would need to be implemented.

How about a 3-5 minute no shoot timer IF the client has been disconnected from the server OR not deployed for over lets say 5 minutes? Because getting reconnected in battle should be less then 5 minute ordeal, this should stop that issue, and anything over 5 minutes would either be a hurried log out or a login trap any ways this should "Band-Aid" some of the issue.

Though I do agree that the deployment ==SHOULD== have separated types in the programming so higher customization of situation issues like this can be tweaked in the future.

25 (edited by Goffer 2014-12-22 10:05:51)

Re: Strategic Logging Off

Kayin Prime wrote:

Logging off on the battle field is really designed as a fail safe for a connection failure right?

No, therefore we have other mechanisms than safe logoff.

Logging off is designed for those who cannot play 24/7 without intteruption and cannot plan to be always in Terminal when forced to leave game. Be for a 2 min bio-break, be for 1h RL priotity.

So we have to consider a different base assumption for logoff-login than you assumed.

The bad thing is that this can be abused for logoff, especially for those haveing several accounts to logoff everywhere.

Now a 5 min no shoot after relogg would prevent this, but imagine the poor guy login in back and beeing locked by Caravan. 5 Min no fire back? Even 1 min would be your death. Same for the one disconnected during battle, when he came back he might  be easy kill, if he could do nothing the next 5 minutes. And I can remember large scale battles with _lots_ of dc. No fun, if a third of your fleet has dc at all, but if this would cost you the firepower the next 5 min, you could just destroy your bots yourself in that situations to spare the enemy the ammo needed to clear the field.

Now you could introduce a "aggro" based lock break, to allow you to defend at all, but even that is fail in group battle, if 3 agents stand there and can only defend one after the next against group.

Devs would need to implement something like defensive-only mode that breaks when lock against nearby squad member or yourself is established. And even that would fail in the case, when not complete fleet but only majority is in logoff trap, as you can imagine.

Don't think that the gain of such a mechanic against today situation would be worth the effort.