Re: The Science behind the Patch.

I still dont read anything about why zenith is worse than baphomet with ewar modules

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Jasmoba wrote:

I still dont read anything about why zenith is worse than baphomet with ewar modules

Can you back that up with some numbers please so we can see what you mean exactly?

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Baphomet gets an optimal range bonus and has comparable head slots. Zenith is shorter range with supressors.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

simple - if its not intended to have longer ewar range on assaults, which is probably the case... just make the range bonus weapon-only... done.

so, the zeniths bonus is to be stronger at supression, not to have alonger range.
IMHO what went wrong is that together with the nerf of EWAR bot efficiency, their hitpoints are not adjusted accordingly.

Masking is a joke anyway...

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Look if you take Honey Boo Boo's mother to a plastic surgeon, get that *** on the stair master, fix her teeth, teach her about art and science and history, give her execution lessons and a course on body odour she would still not be Jessica Alba.

You can't polish a turd.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Just so I understand, a Baphomet with 2% optimal range bonus is much better in EW than a Zenith with its suppressor and EW module accumulator usage bonuses and one more head slot?

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Baphomet MK2:

Locking Range:  435M
Optimal Range :  546M
Effective Range: 435M
EW Strength:  112

http://i.imgur.com/gWduyh2.jpg

Fit 1 Sensor Amp, 1 Tuner 3 Suppressors

Zenith MK1

Same Fit

http://i.imgur.com/dwXy9aA.png

Locking Range: 761M
Optimal Range: 455M
Effective: 455M
EW Strength: 112

20M difference.

This is the fun one:

Zenith mk1:

1 Sensor Amp, 1 Range Extender and 3 Suppressors.

http://i.imgur.com/WVwYhla.png

Locking Range: 761M
Optimal Range: 523M
Effective Range 523M
EW: 112

Baphomet mk2:

http://i.imgur.com/ki8eubv.jpg

Lock Range: 631M
Optimal: 546M
Effective 546M
EW: 112

The Baphomet is 20+ M more ewar range than a Zenith

The ONLY difference between the MK2 Versus the MK1 is 1 less suppressor.  The Zenith gives you no special bonus for usage of suppressor that is worth wild on the field of pvp.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

The Zenith had two roles Removed from it:

The ability to sensor suppressor better than any bot in the game AND the removal of Long range Demob.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

I don't think comparing mk1 with mk2 is fair. An extra suppressor is an extra suppressor, whether it's backed up with a bonus or not.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I don't think comparing mk1 with mk2 is fair. An extra suppressor is an extra suppressor, whether it's backed up with a bonus or not.

mk2's nothing special for someone who don't have to care about equip losses.
Its a valid comparison, since market values of those bots are almost the same.

the thing Ville desperately seems to hide, is that supressors do not need much accumulator to begin with, when you consider the possible recharge rates on assaults with so many leg-slots.
The accumulator-consumption bonus on the zenith is not even necessary for 3 supressors to run them stable.

since you said earlier, that there are planned changes on ewar anyway... (dunno if thats only related to ECM though)

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I don't think comparing mk1 with mk2 is fair. An extra suppressor is an extra suppressor, whether it's backed up with a bonus or not.

It's still an assault bot.  It specializes in assaults.

That's an ewar platform, that specializes in ewar. 

Should the Zenith be compared against Heavy mech classes, since its roles is in mech/heavy mech fights?  Cause your not going to like what happens when it goes against a Seth smile

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Annihilator wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

I don't think comparing mk1 with mk2 is fair. An extra suppressor is an extra suppressor, whether it's backed up with a bonus or not.

the thing Ville desperately seems to hide, is that supressors do not need much accumulator to begin with

Anni, I don't run Suppessors.  I wouldn't know.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Ville wrote:

The ONLY difference between the MK2 Versus the MK1 is 1 less suppressor.  The Zenith gives you no special bonus for usage of suppressor that is worth wild on the field of pvp.

The zenith MK2 has a 20% ew range bonus. I consider that a special bonus that IS worthwhile on the field of pvp.

The Zenith Mk1 is a little gimpy in comparison to the baphomet tbh, but a small ew strength bonus or something to the mk1 would probly overcome it. The biggest advantage the Zenith mk1 has is the base locking range, and the cpu/reactor to extend your range a bit farther than the baphomet. TBH, my problem would be comparing the baphomet to the intact. I am having a difficult time making an argument why to use the intackt ever again, tbh.

I haven't dug into the viability of a baphomet mk2 suppressor/ewar bot pvp  fit yet. I expect that it is less effective than we think it is atm, but maybe not...

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Shadowmine wrote:
Ville wrote:

The ONLY difference between the MK2 Versus the MK1 is 1 less suppressor.  The Zenith gives you no special bonus for usage of suppressor that is worth wild on the field of pvp.

The zenith MK2 has a 20% ew range bonus. I consider that a special bonus that IS worthwhile on the field of pvp.

The Zenith Mk1 is a little gimpy in comparison to the baphomet tbh, but a small ew strength bonus or something to the mk1 would probly overcome it. The biggest advantage the Zenith mk1 has is the base locking range, and the cpu/reactor to extend your range a bit farther than the baphomet. TBH, my problem would be comparing the baphomet to the intact. I am having a difficult time making an argument why to use the intackt ever again, tbh.

I haven't dug into the viability of a baphomet mk2 suppressor/ewar bot pvp  fit yet. I expect that it is less effective than we think it is atm, but maybe not...

Correct the Zenith mk2 grabs the bonus in the hi tech side of things, another MUST have level 10 skill.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Ville wrote:

Anni, I don't run Suppessors.  I wouldn't know.

given your groups argumentation logic, by not using them, your not allowed to use them in any theocrafting on the forums.

part of your argumentation base is valid. its just overshaddowed by what in other game forums would be intantly bashed by a majority of the playerbase as "unconstructive flaming" and locked by a GM within 24h.

Facts:

  • Zeniths and Intacts primary roles are "to use supressors"

  • S-Demobs could be boosted to very long ranges without the same penalty that Longrange Demobs have (aka LoS) while the Demob-Accumulator bonus on those ewar bots is meant for L-Demobs

  • Baphomeths now have enough head and leg-slots to efficiently fit former ewar or heavy-mech only fits regarding Ewar

  • Zeniths got their EW range bonus replaced with a demob-accumulator bonus like Intakts always had

  • Specialised Robots should excel at what they are specialised in

  • Module slot system should allow flexible equipping strategies

what the patch has not achieved yet, is to let specialised robots still excell at what they are for, even if other robots can be equipped to do the same role efficient enough to be a valid choice.

one reason why this is really hard to do with ewar, is the fact that EWAR modules are headslot modules, and only exist in one size.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

I think the key is that you can make any bot with a lot of head slots as good as a specialised ewar mech with one tuning. Same with racial weapons.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

If anything its just a buff to yellow bots, that was probly deserving anyway. But it may go too far in some spots.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Ok fair enough, enjoy the game.

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44 (edited by Jasmoba 2014-11-25 03:36:21)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Assaults got a range bonus affecting any module.  Ewar zenith mk1 u guys took that away.  Range is king when u doing ewar.  For yellow at least.  I think u guys meant range only for weapons but we got for every module in game.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

I'm going to have to agree with Burial and DEV Zoom.  I actually like the changes BUT I do think some tweaks will need to be made.

One problem I see is that the Castel, when fitted in a combat role (i.e. missile launchers) my speed drops into the 90's.

Combat lights should NEVER be slower than heavies.  I'm not sure of the speed of combat yagels and proms but they all should be more than 110 kph fully combat fitted.


As far as the demob-resistant Arbalests, I actually welcome the change, but there may need to be small tweaks to speeds made at some point.

Overall, I've enjoyed the changes, especially since I like to see what I can exploit personally and additionally to come up with counters against what new stuff the enemy throws at us.

Thumbs up to a slightly flawed, yet VERY enjoyable patch

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

arbalast needs reduced total mass so mods slow it down more. Lights and assaults need slight base speed boost and heavies need slight base speed reduction

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

So no true answer as to why the huge nerf on the ictus other than zapping some one for all accu in one volly was op... that bot needed more lvl ten skills that any other bot in the game to be that competitive.  The bot and style of combat it uses is a double edge sword. You need to neut your enemy out faster that you deplete you own cap. Like eccm new neuting number's vs a reactor sealing makes an ictus neut himself out. A skill bonus to further reduce the cap needed to fire a neut might bring the balance back, and not have one shotting ictus.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I don't think comparing mk1 with mk2 is fair. An extra suppressor is an extra suppressor, whether it's backed up with a bonus or not.

Do you have a clue how cheap it is to build mk2 assaults

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Lobo wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

I don't think comparing mk1 with mk2 is fair. An extra suppressor is an extra suppressor, whether it's backed up with a bonus or not.

Do you have a clue how cheap it is to build mk2 assaults

It's about 1.8 million if you buy the cortex FYI.

Less than the cost of some modules.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

If I explain how to do this, I want a month sub (credits)

I dont work for free.



DEV Zoom wrote:

Ictus:

. The best I could do considering a good enough demob resistance was never above 100kph.

--

won't "kneejerk" it.

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