1 (edited by Ville 2014-11-24 18:18:03)

Topic: The Science behind the Patch.

Quick Overview of what this patch REALLY did:

1.  The end of large fleet fight engagements. 
   
   Zenith

  -  Multiple roles key to kiting and pushing into large groups got hit.  One of those is the demobilizing Zenith.  Prior patch it was possible to Demob  individuals upto and including 450 ~700 M with Ewar Nexus.  This has been removed completely from the game.
http://i.imgur.com/agDnCCP.png
  -  The Zenith was Also the COUNTER FIT to mass Assault Zergs, to allow mech groups places to run if overly outnumbered.  It Allowed Kiting.  So that fast tackles could be kept at bay to allow groups a chance of escape if things went horribly bad.  297M is not enough distance to keep 1 or two fast tackle at bay.  With Server Lag, 1 miss calculation to route because of trees, etc...

  -  L Demobs are not an option due to the LOS restrictions:  Trees and Terrain make it next to impossible
 
   Ictus
  -  Posting from other thread. 

http://i.imgur.com/UUPQy1W.png

Hi, I am an Ictus MK2 (I have two optimal range bonus.  1 For Advanced Robotics and 1 for hitech robot specialist)

My Lock Range is : 450 M
My Optimal is:  938 M
Effective Range is :450 M

http://i.imgur.com/gPe6Nyr.jpg

Hi, I am an Ictus Mk2 with 1 Sensor Amp

My Lock Range is: 653 M
My optimal is: 816 M
Effective Range is: 653M

http://i.imgur.com/SF6NcsN.jpg

Hi, I am an Ictus MK2 with 2 Sensor Amp

My Lock Range is: 946 M
My optimal is: 709 M
Effective Range is: 709 M

http://i.imgur.com/iHQcW7L.jpg

Hi, I am a Seth MK1 with 1 sensor Amp(hanging out being all sethy and ***, doing Seth ***.)

My Lock Range is: 805 M
My Optimal Range is: 625 M
Effective Range: 625M (84M difference from an ictus mk2)

http://i.imgur.com/tnkRlef.png

Hi, I am a Seth MK2 with 1 sensor Amp(I'm like king Seth and ***.)

My Lock Range is: 805 M
My Optimal Range is: 719 M
Effective Range: 719M (10M MORE THAN AN ICTUS MK2)

Oh and here is the best part.

To Run those ranges on a Seth you need the following Skills:

Advanced Robotics 4
Basic Robotics 4
Theolodical Control: 8

Now to run those same numbers and be 84 M more than a seth you need to have the following skills on an Ictus MK2:

Pelistal Control 9
Basic Robot Control 4
Electronic warfare specialist 5
Advanced robotics 10(Skill that increases optimal range)
hi tech robotics 10(Skill that increase optimal range)

  Vagabond:
  - Ewar Strength got cut 20% BUT ECCMs did not.

So Instead of adding in the Extension, you choose to just nerf its strength 20%  In Lieu of adding your "extension" which was a major flop you did the SAME thing in a "MAJOR BALANCING" patch. 

Syndic wrote:

20% increase on top of Assault/Mech Sensor Strength + 1 ECCM = ~35% jam, that's a liability I would never bring to my fleet Zoom.
+ theres bound to be 1 of those things from the list implemented, guaranteed liability & useless account.
EDIT:Just realized I overlooked the small print, so:
20% increase to BASE VALUE of SS
20% increase to ECCM (90 SS)
Meaning;MECH & ASSAULT -> 120 SS + 90 SS = 210 SS
Max Vaga EW Strength = 73,5
All of that equals to ~30-35% RNG Variable per ECM
Ultimate result being it's better to bring a RR Bot or a Heavy Mech that can output armor/repair/energy/damage 100%, since EW Mech is unreliable and pointless for fleets.
TL;DR
You should reimburse if you put this in.

-Ewar got hit the hardest in this patch. 

Arbalest MK2

-  You can make an Arbalest mk2 go 120+ and have insane resistance to Demob (50+%), which means 1 demob would only drop the speed less that 1 KPH.  And trying to close the gap against an arbalest with a light ewar is deadly for the light ewar.  There is no Light Ewar(speed fit|tackle) in game that can tank an assault against a Magnadart Arbalest.



TL:DR: 
1. Demobbing Zenith was the counter fit to mass lights and assaults.  The Demobbing Zenith was removed from the game.  Assault bot Mass boast to demob resistance.  Also they are faster than the Other Assaults, and mere tens of KPH faster than a light ewar.  The only counter for an Arbalest MK2 is another Arbalest mk2.  Because the only tackle that is tanky enough to survive is too slow to catch it.
2. ECM/Suppressors still got Nerfed.
3. Ictus was deemed obsolete by everyone and their mother.
4. ERP Heavys got a boast due to the Ictus neuts being lowered. 
/The End

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Ville wrote:

It is fully possible to be demon resistant now.

The Ictus is useless.

The demobbing zenith is obsolete.

The source of the bug?  This terrible balancing patch.

But it did make a nice guide in bad game balancing smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Feel free to explain, otherwise I have to assume you're talking about 2 bots being "demon resistant", with the drawbacks this brings to them. Which in my opinion would not be enough to make anything obsolete.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

you really dont know

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

the drawbacks of speed?   nope  140kph

the drawbacks of armor?   nope *** of armor




Tells us, wise one, what drawbacks?   I know you will not answer, because you really dont know.





DEV Zoom wrote:

Feel free to explain, otherwise I have to assume you're talking about 2 bots being "demon resistant", with the drawbacks this brings to them. Which in my opinion would not be enough to make anything obsolete.

6 (edited by Ville 2014-11-24 18:15:09)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Please Remove Comment, I was Rage Blackout posting.

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Ok, let me add something to the above:

Even if there are balancing issues, panicking and posting "the sky is falling, everything is obsolete, glbrflbrl" topics won't help a bit, because you can't put a sensible response to those and they will just get simply ignored.

If there are balancing issues, we will try to fix them. But this attitude of "we know better and you don't know sh*t" has to stop, we can't work like that, and you won't have it better either. Thanks.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Isn't this a question of using more demobs in fleet so that those plated assualts/lights don't get away.?

Are we too used to easy demob , oh *** I'm dead.

RIP PERPETUUM

9 (edited by Burial 2014-11-24 17:37:28)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

It's possible to build fully demob immune Arbalest MK2s. Fully. But it's also possible to build bots that can catch and easily gank them - all of the assaults and Kain(and probably other mechs).

I don't see a problem.

Everything doesn't have to be easily catchable and blappable by heavies.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Burial wrote:

It's possible to build fully demob immune Arbalest MK2s. Fully. But it's also possible to build bots that can catch and easily gank them.

I don't see a problem.

Everything doesn't have to be easily catchable and blappable by heavies.

Agreed. I have a feeling this issue is more about "my FotM demob-build isn't working anymore", but I'll wait for Ville and his crayons smile

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, let me add something to the above:

Even if there are balancing issues, panicking and posting "the sky is falling, everything is obsolete, glbrflbrl" topics won't help a bit, because you can't put a sensible response to those and they will just get simply ignored.

If there are balancing issues, we will try to fix them. But this attitude of "we know better and you don't know sh*t" has to stop, we can't work like that, and you won't have it better either. Thanks.

You, as a developer, need to make correct calls and not just butcher the WHOLE game without asking anyone who understands a thing or two about balance and pvp. Then you are expecting players to react normally to that afterwards. Then you ask them to be "sensible" at the expense of their own time, balancing the game for you and making the suggestions, while you don't even consider 98% of what is written to you. I'm sorry sir, aren't your expectations a bit too high?

Besides, no one will post ON THE FORUMS a sensible response like you expect, because it's all very much related to current meta-game. No one will reveal his tricks and calculations and fits, nobody here is stupid like that. And it doesn't look like you are trying to put any effort to reach out to players. So again, wtf you expect when you post something like that?

Maybe it's time to put some logic into the changes you make, Zoom? What do you think about that suggestion?

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Weedy: sorry but  that's the same attitude I was talking about, just put more eloquently.

Obviously when we do changes to the game we have our own reasons and logic for them. When players don't agree with them they accuse us of being <insert random derogative adjective>. We are used to that, but it usually doesn't really help in making us seriously reconsider whether there is a fault in our logic or not.

13 (edited by Ville 2014-11-24 17:55:19)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

You take a well balanced game than you try to rebalance it.  Is like saying:

"Well if it ain't broke than fix it till it is."

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14 (edited by Ville 2014-11-24 17:53:29)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

......

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15 (edited by Weedy 2014-11-24 17:55:47)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

It doesn't anything have to do with the changes. We can utilize the new changes to the advantage and come up with the new stuff. We have enough resources for that. Although some of the changes are quite ridiculous, considering that some things have piled up together since the previous patches.

In reality, what it has to do with, is your childish attitude towards your own game. You take anything offensively, without applying your own pre-thinking on the matter. You do, then you fix. It repeats over and over and over and over for 4 years now. There has been a lot written about it, and I can write a lot about it too, but it doesn't seem like you are ever in the mood to listen to anyone except yourself, resorting to fixing your own mistakes afterwards. This needs to stop. Like right now. Don't be surprised that players don't wanna put stuff together for you if it is mostly ignored, no matter how SENSIBLE it is. You simply can't post *** like that on the forums to your own playerbase, Zoom.

And don't forget to thank Ville for scrapping some calculations together in the first post, doing YOUR own work.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

16 (edited by Celebro 2014-11-24 19:19:00)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

@ Zoom:The only logic I heard from you about this patch is the ' closing the player gap'. Nerfing green to hell has no logical explanation. At least try an articulate why the greens have got hit so hard.

The ball is in your court to communicate what the changes mean, and then we can have a decent discussion , dismissing our concerns because some players show you attitude and you getting all defensive about it is no excuse.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Celebro wrote:

@ Zoom:The only logic I heard from you about this patch is the ' closing the player gap'. Nerfing green to hell has no logical explanation. At least try an articulate why the greens have got hit so hard.

The ball is in your court to communicate what the changes mean, and then we can have a decent discussion , dismissing our concerns because some players show you attitude and you getting all defensive about it is no excuse.

Celebro: That's the same attitude Zoom was talking about just put more eloquently.

#carebearsunited

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Re: The Science behind the Patch.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, let me add something to the above:

Even if there are balancing issues, panicking and posting "the sky is falling, everything is obsolete, glbrflbrl" topics won't help a bit, because you can't put a sensible response to those and they will just get simply ignored.

If there are balancing issues, we will try to fix them. But this attitude of "we know better and you don't know sh*t" has to stop, we can't work like that, and you won't have it better either. Thanks.

Honestly zoom it's a multitude of problems. It's not just one. You can't rebalance it without making it worse, it just needs rolling back and starting again. I could go through them all but your better just booking a time to be on the test server and on comms and a few people can come talk to you and show you live.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Jita wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, let me add something to the above:

Even if there are balancing issues, panicking and posting "the sky is falling, everything is obsolete, glbrflbrl" topics won't help a bit, because you can't put a sensible response to those and they will just get simply ignored.

If there are balancing issues, we will try to fix them. But this attitude of "we know better and you don't know sh*t" has to stop, we can't work like that, and you won't have it better either. Thanks.

Honestly zoom it's a multitude of problems. It's not just one. You can't rebalance it without making it worse, it just needs rolling back and starting again. I could go through them all but your better just booking a time to be on the test server and on comms and a few people can come talk to you and show you live.

+1

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20 (edited by Jasmoba 2014-11-24 20:59:44)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Dear Zoom:

     We have check the new balances and we found a few issues you might wanna take a look at:

Demobs:  Demobs got a nerf in 2 occasions in less than a couple of months. 

Reasons?

     1:  Speed increase:  All bots got speed increase, however, demobs stayed the same making it a necessity to equip 2 modules instead of 1.  We understand there were things like I win fit so we tried to adapt.

     2: Demob Resist Bonus:  The idea was great when we just read about it.  But after testing.  There are bots that can be immune to the effect.  I do understand having some resist but making them demob proof its just a bit to much.  No bot or module should be able to 100% resistant to something.

Ewar:  We understand you received several complains about how strong (yet so fragile) EWAR bots.  The changes you did made them nearly useless.  An assault platform has a better EWAR capability range wise vs a Zenith MK1.   No reason to run a zenith when you can run an assault with similar ewar but superior in range and damage bonuses for weapons.  Vagabond is  similar thing i am not a blue pilot


This game used to be rock/paper/scissor and it was great.  Now you just pile all together making racial bonuses near useless.  A extension that got heavy nerf in a way was Electronic Warfare Specialist.  Only reason to invest EP is to get the ability to pilot a MK2.  That's it.  Masking bonus on a mech?  Trust me wont do much difference to justify the EP usage. 

I respectfully request from you to please look at this notes and I would like to know the reasoning behind it.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

A high ECCM rating and a ECM can end up doing next to nothing. THere is a lower bound where low interference does nothing. That would be the equivalent of only your 5th shot starting to do damage.

Demobbings not working on stuff taht is counterfitted isn't taht out of the line and the game has plenty of 0 effectiveness features already.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

Ictus:

The Ictus was very overpowered before the patch and needed a straight nerf, we're not denying that. But we don't think it's obsolete, even with the Seth coming very close to it in its own role. You need to understand that it's bad gameplay to shut down someone's accumulator in a few seconds without being able to do anything. We're trying to move away from these extremities, and this also applies for ECM (we have a few incoming changes there too).

The Ictus is still more agile and more efficient in neutralizing than the Seth, but if you really think they're too close then the solution isn't to boost the Ictus back, but perhaps to remove a misc slot from heavies.

Arbalest:

The Arbalest is meant to be a hit&run assault and its bonus changes complement this role. Its old armor repair bonus probably only helped in some PvE situations, but in PvP if it was overcome then it was dead fast, repair bonus or not.

Being "demob proof" is just an option, and yes it has its drawbacks. Either it's too expensive, or too slow, or less damage, or a bit of all. If you can show me that "140kph uber-Arbalest" which has absolutely none of these drawbacks in a private message, then we can talk because then you probably found an exploit. The best I could do considering a good enough demob resistance was never above 100kph.

--

But generally speaking we're waiting and watching for the new balance to unfold. Changes like this always take some time to settle, mostly because players don't want to break out of their comfort zone and let go of their old habits, fits, and strategies.

If we take the bigger picture we are confident that the patch turned the game for the better and achieved the main goal of closing the gap between players. No patch is perfect so it might still need some tweaks, but we take your own advice and certainly won't "kneejerk" it.

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ictus:

The Ictus was very overpowered before the patch and needed a straight nerf, we're not denying that. But we don't think it's obsolete, even with the Seth coming very close to it in its own role. You need to understand that it's bad gameplay to shut down someone's accumulator in a few seconds without being able to do anything. We're trying to move away from these extremities, and this also applies for ECM (we have a few incoming changes there too).

The Ictus is still more agile and more efficient in neutralizing than the Seth, but if you really think they're too close then the solution isn't to boost the Ictus back, but perhaps to remove a misc slot from heavies.

Arbalest:

The Arbalest is meant to be a hit&run assault and its bonus changes complement this role. Its old armor repair bonus probably only helped in some PvE situations, but in PvP if it was overcome then it was dead fast, repair bonus or not.

Being "demob proof" is just an option, and yes it has its drawbacks. Either it's too expensive, or too slow, or less damage, or a bit of all. If you can show me that "140kph uber-Arbalest" which has absolutely none of these drawbacks in a private message, then we can talk because then you probably found an exploit. The best I could do considering a good enough demob resistance was never above 100kph.

--

But generally speaking we're waiting and watching for the new balance to unfold. Changes like this always take some time to settle, mostly because players don't want to break out of their comfort zone and let go of their old habits, fits, and strategies.

If we take the bigger picture we are confident that the patch turned the game for the better and achieved the main goal of closing the gap between players. No patch is perfect so it might still need some tweaks, but we take your own advice and certainly won't "kneejerk" it.

Arbalast with frame, t2 proto medium plate t4 rep and two t2 proto light plates, t2 proto guns, vanilla head slots and velocity nexus. 140. It's not just the arbalast - it's all assaults, the reason people use the arbalast is it's faster. Perfectly possible with mechs too.

What about a gauss Seth mk2 out damaging a gauss Mesmer mk2?

What about a seth mk2 being better than a vaga mk2?

What about assaults shield tanking better than a castel mk2?

What about an arbalast jamming at a longer distance than a cameleon mk2?

I could go on.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

If you can only do that with protos then that's a drawback right there in my book.

25 (edited by Jita 2014-11-24 22:03:09)

Re: The Science behind the Patch.

T2 protos are ridiculously cheap.

What about gauss seth mk2 > gauss Mesmer mk2?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."