Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Goffer gets it.

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27 (edited by Burial 2014-10-25 18:25:14)

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Goffer wrote:

...

We are talking about 30-40% for everything from refining to prototyping to production. Let's not forget he's a low EP character.

I have no idea how your current Gamma base is set up, but decked out T3 base gives around 82-83% efficiencies across the board with no EP spent on any production extensions. It's hard to compete against that.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Burial wrote:
Goffer wrote:

...

We are talking about 30-40% for everything from refining to prototyping to production. Let's not forget he's a low EP character.

I have no idea how your current Gamma base is set up, but decked out T3 base gives around 82-83% efficiencies across the board with no EP spent on any production extensions. It's hard to compete against that.

not to forget the negliable impact of CT quality and the ability to merge two worn out CTs into a new usable one. thats another huge factor when you reduce the number of prototypes and decoders required.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Burial wrote:
Goffer wrote:

...

We are talking about 30-40% for everything from refining to prototyping to production. Let's not forget he's a low EP character.

I have no idea how your current Gamma base is set up, but decked out T3 base gives around 82-83% effeciencies across the board with no EP spent on any production extensions. It's hard to compete against that.

That is why industry efficiency should be equal across all areas of the game or better on alpha , I told the Devs countless of times. Production should be done on mass in safe areas, if not the market is not going to work.

RIP PERPETUUM

30 (edited by Burial 2014-10-30 19:25:18)

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Celebro wrote:
Burial wrote:
Goffer wrote:

...

We are talking about 30-40% for everything from refining to prototyping to production. Let's not forget he's a low EP character.

I have no idea how your current Gamma base is set up, but decked out T3 base gives around 82-83% effeciencies across the board with no EP spent on any production extensions. It's hard to compete against that.

That is why industry efficiency should be equal across all areas of the game or better on alpha , I told the Devs countless of times. Production should be done on mass in safe areas, if not the market is not going to work.

I've said it many times over the years that the developers just need to fix Betas and we have a playable game.

Game started out with just Alphas and Betas and people were happy. Things turned sour with Gammas and all the other tweaks that inadvertently affected Betas. Beta vs Gamma production bonus is just another laughable facet given they both are PVP zones.

Either increase the reward to be on par with risk or decrease the risk to be on par with the reward.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

+1 to burials comment

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Burial wrote:
Celebro wrote:
Burial wrote:

We are talking about 30-40% for everything from refining to prototyping to production. Let's not forget he's a low EP character.

I have no idea how your current Gamma base is set up, but decked out T3 base gives around 82-83% effeciencies across the board with no EP spent on any production extensions. It's hard to compete against that.

That is why industry efficiency should be equal across all areas of the game or better on alpha , I told the Devs countless of times. Production should be done on mass in safe areas, if not the market is not going to work.

I've said it many times over the years that the developers just need to fix Betas and we have a playable game.

Game started out with just Alphas and Betas and people were happy. Things turned sour with Gammas and all the other tweaks that inadvertently affected Betas. Beta vs Gamma production bonus is just another laughable facet given they are both PVP zones.

Either increase the reward to be on par with risk or decrease the risk to be on bar with the reward.


This is just burial say more negative things about the game that hold no baring to anything in-game......

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Hm, I seem to of not logged into my Dev Zoom account.

Just imagine I guess...

I am Perpetuum.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Burial and Anni In fact you could sum up all this as benefit. But CT quality is same and merging brings not that benefit on most items if you compare costs and so on.
For refining I have very exact numbers, thats ~4% difference between alpha and gamma for end game producer. If you loose one out of 25 transports to gamma, you have just a break even between gamma and alpha for refining without taking haul effort into account.

Ofc that matters if we talk about someone filling corp storages, but not on a degree that matters on market  up to now. I was more than a year without reasonable gamma competing on market against STC/Remedy... using full fledged gamma. And I did not feel pushed out of market. Reason is, that market is dictated by far more constraints.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Goffer wrote:

Burial and Anni In fact you could sum up all this as benefit. But CT quality is same and merging brings not that benefit on most items if you compare costs and so on.
For refining I have very exact numbers, thats ~4% difference between alpha and gamma for end game producer. If you loose one out of 25 transports to gamma, you have just a break even between gamma and alpha for refining without taking haul effort into account.

Ofc that matters if we talk about someone filling corp storages, but not on a degree that matters on market  up to now. I was more than a year without reasonable gamma competing on market against STC/Remedy... using full fledged gamma. And I did not feel pushed out of market. Reason is, that market is dictated by far more constraints.

we are talking about a new player who filled all his extensionpoints into production.
gamma came up with burial saying that a noob can be competitive using the facilities there from start on.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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36 (edited by Burial 2014-10-26 20:00:03)

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Goffer wrote:

For refining I have very exact numbers, thats ~4% difference between alpha and gamma for end game producer

Can you show the numbers? Did you compare fully upgraded T3 base to A2 terminal? It's hard to believe since the numbers I ran came out differently a while ago, just don't have them at hand to post.

By the way, I do agree with you that maxed out producer can make it work on Alpha. It's the issue I mentioned a while ago about Gamma bases being needed most by players most unlikely to get them. I'd love if veteran producers would need the bases more than newbie producers.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Low mark up prices to compete with vets is possible, but you need a high turnover of sales to make it worthwhile, hence the need of more players to buy on market which is not happening.

The game needs to move away from corp internal industry and one way to do that would be to remove internal market orders and make industry on alpha more worthwhile. When you start getting specialised mass producing players making a few mass produced items at such a low markup, then you start to think if it sometimes worth to just buy on market and not bother on building it yourself. We are still a long way away from this to happen as the turnover is not there yet.

At the right prices and more players; players will buy and sell more.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Its about 4% with max skills and max relations. That's stackable over refinary factory proto etc and does add up.

Market prices at the moment are not driven by mineral cost but by under and oversupply and lack of demand and supply. Talking about efficiency is useless, there IS opportunity.

Part of the reason I'm liquidating is because of the stupidity that is infinite materials prices can and will plumet if the games population rises. Best to get your nic while prices are high.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

so, we are back to we have been before, in the endless cycle of
"the game does not work because lack of player" and
"the game lacks player because it doesn't work"

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

The market works no matter what the player base really. It's actually easier for noobs to compete now than if the game was busy.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

im sure it works
im sure the DEVs have their statistics for that like every other online game studio has for balancing.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

42 (edited by Burial 2014-10-27 10:34:08)

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Annihilator wrote:

so, we are back to we have been before, in the endless cycle of
"the game does not work because lack of player" and
"the game lacks player because it doesn't work"

Burial wrote:

Catch 22 is that if the game only works with bigger population, it will never reach bigger population.

Unfortunate when numerous problems get thrown out of the window by claiming they'll be fine with bigger community.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Burial wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

so, we are back to we have been before, in the endless cycle of
"the game does not work because lack of player" and
"the game lacks player because it doesn't work"

Burial wrote:

Catch 22 is that if the game only works with bigger population, it will never reach bigger population.

Unfortunate when numerous problems get thrown out of the window by claiming they'll be fine with bigger community.

theres a nursery song that represents the issue pretty well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59cIISN9ByE

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

So production characters with maxxed skills and maxed relation can get within 4% of the gamma production ability on alpha. And a brand new player can produce about the same on gamma that a maxxed acct can on alpha.

The problem with that, is how many people have completely maxxed out production characters? Answer: almost no one except for a very few vets.

To have to buy an account and wait 18 months to have a maxxed out producer sucks balls. Noone wants to do that. That's why the gamma bonus was so huge. Even a PVPer could spend a few thousand ep and be more than capable of producing his own stuff.

Of course, that all being said. There is still room on the market to make NIC without great production skills. But it is a lot more work to do so...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Haven't read the whole thread but to the OP:

Producing is almost impossible with 1 account. With 3 accounts it can be profitable. I have a miner/producer, miner/repper and a combat/artifacter. After 3 months I researched and produced 4 lines of t4 mods netting 1/4 to 1/2 billion. Then again I don't know how that compares to pure combat or mining.

One more things: My producer account spent EP on mining before production - you need the raw materials before you can produce anything!

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Nex has access to really high Gamma % too for production.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

True Ville but those first 4 production lines were before joining PHM and done on alpha.

To play devil's advocate on myself though, it's entirely possible I could have made more money doing more robot farming and selling raw materials.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

LazerusKI wrote:

That would be mean -.-
I just put some of my EM guns into the market, some ammo too.
If it does not sell, atleast i can support a friend with ammo and weapons then

I ran exclusive Alpha Industrial for an extended period of time in Perp and while it's time consuming and less than efficient if compared to Beta or Gamma you can make things happen.

I'd still suggest as a brave new member of Perp, you focus on Artifact scanning and tracking down the Cortex component. You will seldom see Heavy mech but you will see a lot of lights and assaults and humble amounts of Mech. You will in the process gather reasonable amounts of meta 0 and it is recycled to commodities that you simply can't get on Alpha. You are not chosing an easy path in Perp but you will find you can make it happen and it's rewarding in its own way.

The first time I churned out half a dozen Artemis MK2's I was quite proud of myself and from all my Artifacting, I have T3, Niani fit one of them full slot. It's a beast of a robot with some solid Kernal farming potential.

Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Actually...we moved on to other games again.
It was fun for a few days, but for us its not worth the time and money.
If we would need multiple accounts to compete with others...thats one thing.
But i dont like the split community. some say its worthless, some say its fine, while a few players and corps controll a majority of Perps econonmy - thats just sad.
A few dozen islands more and it could work for me as a newcomer...but for now its no fun for me to play...same issue as in eve, completely broken market sad
so yeah...maybe we will play again in the future, so have fun^^