Topic: The Forest Problem

So I've seen a number of posts/threads about the new forest clusters of low tree-like, non harvest-able, plants. 

Quoted from patch notes with the change:
"A lot of plants have been reduced in size to combat the perceived feeling of small robots. We have also changed the way they are growing, so they will now more likely gather in colonies and form forests. If you experience reduced client performance because of this, try to reduce the "draw distance" slider in the options. "

This manifests issues with impassibility, auto-pilots path-solver, client performance, and I would guess server performance given they are all unique objects. 

So my humble, ill-informed, nooby-ridden suggestion tackles issue of performance, but also aesthetics with respect to the point brought up in the quote.

Let there be trees, but as large, maybe just tall, maybe multiple tiles, but fewer in number.   Similar to perhaps how it was before the patch ironically. 

This addresses the number of objects that are instanced and loaded when players cross the grid lines, thereby reducing load client side.  Having singular larger objects will allow for the same use of cover, and restrict motion for strategic dis/advantage.  Perhaps some are still low-lying for ballistic fire, while some are higher and provide cover from missile volleys. 
Also, having larger convex objects will make autopilot pathing solve more effectively through these forests (I think according to how I've seen it operate).

The second point is on the aesthetic justification, which I don't agree with as stated in the quote above.  Sure, maybe we should have large lumbering robot/mechs to play more towards the MechWarrior crowd.  But the camera perspective already diminishes the scale, as does the landscape, and infrastructure.  So to remain consistent and allow you, the devs and designers, to really sculpt visually and spatially appealing places to explore, uncover, or exploit, taller tree-life will augment this. 
Without taller trees, the landscape feels kind of bald, you can see very far on the horizon, and nothing feels 'hidden'.  Why not allow for things to be obscured? Why can't alien plant life dwarf our bots? 
Perhaps even the tree of the forest can have growth in size and height over its maturation. 

So I offer this compromise to the forest idea:
Less in number, larger in size (of each object).

Re: The Forest Problem

Omg, these things are *** in pvp.  I hate them so much because once you go in you can't see impassable terrain because of the tree tops.  So frustrating!!!  Hate trees online!!

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Re: The Forest Problem

Ville wrote:

Omg, these things are *** in pvp.  I hate them so much because once you go in you can't see impassable terrain because of the tree tops.  So frustrating!!!  Hate trees online!!

The autopilot make loops when recalculate the route, and the shake-walking is ***.

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Re: The Forest Problem

I like em

5 (edited by Annihilator 2014-10-20 13:33:53)

Re: The Forest Problem

i smell political motivated attempt to affect DEVelopment past the OP's post.

regarding the OP -
grafical wise, all those plants should be instances of a very small number of variations and thus, not affect the rendering speed much more then one of each of those.

my personal problem with those plants is the lack of size variations withing a flock. as far as i can tell, each plant has a few grow stages, but the scale of each stage is always the same. I agree that within a flock, there should be plants that have twice the size and thus blocking more then one ground tile. But if your familiar with perpetuum mechanics, you would know that this is not an easy task, but with the switch from bitmap based storage of data to node based, not an impossible one.

and the resize of plants was made for more imersion of the sheer size of those robots. even the smallest one is bigger then your car...

edit:
also, for the pathfinding, it makes zero difference if the blocked pixels are because of a single plant, or multiple. its just impassable terrain. one issue is that it doesnt consider pathing through diagonal gaps that player controlled robots can.
The second reason, is similar, that the client-server synchronisation of the terrain does not consider diagonal traveling.

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Re: The Forest Problem

you dont play where it counts, so how can we take your opinion in to consideration as its based on assumption

Annihilator wrote:

i smell political motivated attempt to affect DEVelopment past the OP's post.

regarding the OP -
grafical wise, all those plants should be instances of a very small number of variations and thus, not affect the rendering speed much more then one of each of those.

my personal problem with those plants is the lack of size variations withing a flock. as far as i can tell, each plant has a few grow stages, but the scale of each stage is always the same. I agree that within a flock, there should be plants that have twice the size and thus blocking more then one ground tile. But if your familiar with perpetuum mechanics, you would know that this is not an easy task, but with the switch from bitmap based storage of data to node based, not an impossible one.

and the resize of plants was made for more imersion of the sheer size of those robots. even the smallest one is bigger then your car...

Re: The Forest Problem

Annihilator wrote:

i smell political motivated attempt to affect DEVelopment past the OP's post.

regarding the OP -
grafical wise, all those plants should be instances of a very small number of variations and thus, not affect the rendering speed much more then one of each of those.

my personal problem with those plants is the lack of size variations withing a flock. as far as i can tell, each plant has a few grow stages, but the scale of each stage is always the same. I agree that within a flock, there should be plants that have twice the size and thus blocking more then one ground tile. But if your familiar with perpetuum mechanics, you would know that this is not an easy task, but with the switch from bitmap based storage of data to node based, not an impossible one.

and the resize of plants was made for more imersion of the sheer size of those robots. even the smallest one is bigger then your car...

what are you even talking about?  Political reasons why we don't like trees?  LOL?  Just walk into the middle of one a few times and get stuck and spend 30 seconds spinning your camera to figure out how to get out then ask yourself, not if I was being chased by an attacker what would happen?

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8 (edited by Annihilator 2014-10-20 13:37:53)

Re: The Forest Problem

Ville wrote:

what are you even talking about?  Political reasons why we don't like trees?  LOL?  Just walk into the middle of one a few times and get stuck and spend 30 seconds spinning your camera to figure out how to get out then ask yourself, not if I was being chased by an attacker what would happen?

either your attacker or yourself would mow down the tree's with your weapons and free you from your misserable situation.

btw, perpetuum selling point number one:

DEV Zoom wrote:

...where positioning your robot and using terrain elements to your advantage is key...

destructible plants = Terrain elements

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Re: The Forest Problem

Right!  So when you go in, if you can't see a clear route these become Huge obstacles or death traps in pvp.  And once you get demobed its over.  I roam the islands, I interact with these plant growths about 20 times a day or more.  They can be overall frustrating trying to get out of.  Its quite ridiculous.

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Re: The Forest Problem

So to summarize what I gather here:
Some like the additional cover/pathing confusion they provide (hence a dis-advantage for one side or another).
Some want them removed altogether, or revert to how it was before.
One guy likes em.
Another would like to see variety.
Everyone hates lag.

So its clear, as it stands it is perhaps excessive and could be more strategically implemented.  And perhaps as a bonus: more variety/complexity of plant life. 

Cool, so hotfix tomorrow or what? lol
But seriously is there a process for fielding things beyond this forum?

Re: The Forest Problem

a small hesitation once in a while in AP

are you complaining about this AP ??



lol


you need to see the old AP

Re: The Forest Problem

Ville wrote:

Right!  So when you go in, if you can't see a clear route these become Huge obstacles or death traps in pvp.  And once you get demobed its over.  I roam the islands, I interact with these plant growths about 20 times a day or more.  They can be overall frustrating trying to get out of.  Its quite ridiculous.

I just zoom right in, till I can get out..

Re: The Forest Problem

Ville wrote:

Right!  So when you go in, if you can't see a clear route these become Huge obstacles or death traps in pvp.

This is how it should be and no different than terrain in general.

Quit whining.

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Re: The Forest Problem

I don't know... I for one think the auto-pilot has been negatively affected by this, as the routes are constantly changing as soon as trees come into view (yes I have max draw distance). Couple this with the fact that your robot is faster and it leads to dead ends where the AP breaks.

Re: The Forest Problem

Smokeyii wrote:

I don't know... I for one think the auto-pilot has been negatively affected by this, as the routes are constantly changing as soon as trees come into view (yes I have max draw distance). Couple this with the fact that your robot is faster and it leads to dead ends where the AP breaks.

which has nothing to do with the changed plant grow algorithm, but the still less-then-optimal terrain update:
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -distance/

the AP also is the most rudimentary implementation of a A* path finding algorithm you can think of (its using the unprocessed data) and gargaj stopped working on it as soon as it was usable.

as for GFX performance issues -> maybe its time to have a LoD system in place for once? at 1km a plant doesn't need to be more then a simple sprite...

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Re: The Forest Problem

Smokeyii wrote:

I don't know... I for one think the auto-pilot has been negatively affected by this, as the routes are constantly changing as soon as trees come into view (yes I have max draw distance). Couple this with the fact that your robot is faster and it leads to dead ends where the AP breaks.

Its more about walking into a forest and going in so far to realize your stuck then you have to zoom in and keep rotating your camera 10,000 times to find the exit.

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Re: The Forest Problem

would love to see a screenshot of a forrest that big.

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Re: The Forest Problem

Ville wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:

I don't know... I for one think the auto-pilot has been negatively affected by this, as the routes are constantly changing as soon as trees come into view (yes I have max draw distance). Couple this with the fact that your robot is faster and it leads to dead ends where the AP breaks.

Its more about walking into a forest and going in so far to realize your stuck then you have to zoom in and keep rotating your camera 10,000 times to find the exit.

Can't see the forest for the trees?

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Re: The Forest Problem

i like the zoomed in perspective
http://i.imgur.com/SUpvGnR.jpg

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Re: The Forest Problem

Goto kko1 teleport and walk 20 M.  Go around Abbu station.  Walk into Novastrov.

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21 (edited by Galaxy Drones 2014-10-21 22:21:13)

Re: The Forest Problem

Smokeyii wrote:

I don't know... I for one think the auto-pilot has been negatively affected by this, as the routes are constantly changing as soon as trees come into view (yes I have max draw distance). Couple this with the fact that your robot is faster and it leads to dead ends where the AP breaks.

1++

Keep it simple, stupid.

Re: The Forest Problem

Lets make this simple:

Good Trees : http://i.imgur.com/KHfqt0y.jpg

Bad Trees: http://i.imgur.com/IHuS098.jpg

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Re: The Forest Problem

Actual good trees: http://i.imgur.com/pLoFSkj.png

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Re: The Forest Problem

Wait.

Forest for the trees.

Forest of the trees?

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Re: The Forest Problem

LOL I just noticed the link and Stranger Danger agahahahahahah!!!!  FU Stranger!!!!!  LOLL:LOLOL, I can't stop laughing.

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