Topic: Owning a Beta Station.

There is a lot of discussion about owning a Beta Station and some of the problems associated with the current SAP mechanics and current mechanics with mobility.

Which leads me to ask a few questions:

Should 1 guy in an assault bot be able to complete disrupt an entire corporations production in a station because he hits a SAP during an off time and makes the station lose up to 2 production facilities efficiencies?

Should a 1 Man corporation be able to own a station in a pvp MMO and hold it?

I would like to hear some answers to those questions.  Because those answer need to be asked before we get all willy nilly into "We need to change this or that".  Because the ultimate problem is "lack of content".  If the stations offered more than a convenient place to store Epi than they might be worth fighting for.

Station stability might "Sound" like a good idea, but was VERY poorly executed.  Because the bonuses for the stations do not provide enough reward in production efficiency to  justify moving a production out to a beta island without it being at 90~100% all the time.  It would be most efficient to just produce on Alpha, which is what most people do.  Fighting for SAPs is a fun mini game but like I said one guy in a waspish can cost a production corp millions.  Which is why no one lives in Beta.  Just for the Epi. 

How to fix these problems?  Stop rebalancing things.  Give new content to people, make the Stockpiles of bots and modules WORTHLESS by adding new tiers of goods, better bots.  Make those stockpiled assets move.  This is how you combat these items guys, not rebalancing content. 

But as long as 1 guy in an assault bot can jack up a corps logistics no one will live there.  Viva Intrusion 1.0!

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Not hard to protect an outpost from 1 assault.

3 (edited by Jita 2014-10-12 10:28:25)

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Considering you lose that for twelve hours ish it sounds working as intended.

People don't live on beta because

a) the beta 1 open terminals offer the same terminal bonus as alpha 2

b) the closed beta terminals can be locked out potentially losing your production materials

c) sparks allow an enemy to do whatever they want wherever they want leaving a detector or two around to watch and then jump in and gank you and leave without effort

d) any type of on island industry is horribly exposed due to dynamic ore spawns and sparks

The reason people lived on beta and did industry there before was

a) in order to attack someone on island you needed to move through an external teleport which could be scouted

b) there were between 4 and 7 100m epriton spots in static locations 1500m from stations

c) there were full red ore spawns of every type on beta

d) anyone who used an alt who logged in station or on the field could be killed and therefore pushed off an island

e) ore on alpha was finite and ran out making beta comparatively better

f) locking stations wasn't possible so the worst that could be done was disrupt and not prevent

g) detectors didn't exist meaning scouting was difficult and dangerous

h) no sparks meant moving from your industry source was undesirable

i) small haulers meant moving alpha stuff to beta and visa versa was difficult and so undesirable

I've personally seen an island with 1400 people on it lose hundreds at a time when even one of these above changes happened. I was part of the original round table of Beta pre release that recommended the original set up of how Beta should be to encourage its use and it worked with Beta flourishing. Only after successive changes watering down its worth and exponentially increasing it's risk are we at this point today.

I urge you to rectify the mistakes that have been made as part of the five points that bring Beta back

1) nerf sparks to 1 gamma 1 alpha

2) remove station locking from beta 1 and add the stability change to beta 2

3) bring back static full red spawns on minerals on beta

4) remove detectors from the game

5) rebalance alpha and beta station facilities

Alpha should be safe but not very lucrative
Beta 1 should be very lucrative with early base content and dangerous to people who roam
Beta 2 should be very lucrative with mid base content and dangerous to people who roam and attack stations
Gamma should be lucrative with end game base content and safe to people who roam but dangerous to people who attack stations.

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4 (edited by Khader Khan 2014-10-12 10:51:36)

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Burial wrote:

Not hard to protect an outpost from 1 assault.

Says the guy with no outposts... Says the guy who thinks 'waiting' is an effective strategy when the enemy shows up with a 'blob'.  One guy in an assault in the off timezone is all it takes to bring a station down up to 20 pts.

I know people don't like that the game unintentionally copies EVE mechanics but we really need to look at their ownership mechanics (which aren't perfect by a long shot). There should be 3 locations around a base (Saps) all should be destro with 3-5 x the current hp and more resists than current. When all 3 are destroyed the Real Sap goes live with in 12- 24 hours if taken the Outpost is put in to Contested (0%) its open to all.

Now we would need another mechanic for deciding who wins the OP like a very large Passive hack that counts per corp not per agent, Corp A has 3 agents in masked lights skirting Corp B 5 agents in Heavies. Of course 5 is more than 3 but the Sap will stay contested until only Corp A or B is the only corp in the Passive area for 2-3 hours. Timer pauses when other corp enters control area.

Once control is established the 3 Destro control points go live and process can be repeated.
Destro points should have a passive repair mechanic.
Destro points should produce a Gamma style alarm.

Now comes the problem of Sap loot. and old saps
Only agents from the owning corp gets access to a set of extra daily missions. Only the CEO gets a mission that would be difficult to complete alone but one that would drop up to a current full active hack drop. Other missions would include harvesting noralgis for PLs and mining epi for PLs, Combat missions with PVP ammo rewards.

Maybe Ville can put in some ideas on productions since I'm just a go getter when it comes to production.

Edit. Only 2 Beta stations can be held by one corp.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Make Alpha II terminals worse, like 10 points on facilities. Or another solution make the points "graph" more increasing.

So Beta and Gamma, will be worth at least manufacture there.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Inda wrote:

Make Alpha II terminals worse, like 10 points on facilities. Or another solution make the points "graph" more increasing.

So Beta and Gamma, will be worth at least manufacture there.

No, you are removing content, Even if the terminals started off with the original production designs, remember some had boosts to Refining and Factory, while others had prototype and reverse engineering.  Maybe even at 0 stability the bases still offered you 50 points to the specific roles it previously had in intrusion 1.0.

I REALLY liked the system in Intrusion 1.0 were I could Rent a station to my enemys, In Example:  The station was open and the enemy had to sign up for a battle.

I did not like the endless amount of station games that came from open terminals and all the trash talking station alts that spawned from it.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Ville wrote:
Inda wrote:

Make Alpha II terminals worse, like 10 points on facilities. Or another solution make the points "graph" more increasing.

So Beta and Gamma, will be worth at least manufacture there.

No, you are removing content, Even if the terminals started off with the original production designs, remember some had boosts to Refining and Factory, while others had prototype and reverse engineering.  Maybe even at 0 stability the bases still offered you 50 points to the specific roles it previously had in intrusion 1.0.

I REALLY liked the system in Intrusion 1.0 were I could Rent a station to my enemys, In Example:  The station was open and the enemy had to sign up for a battle.

I did not like the endless amount of station games that came from open terminals and all the trash talking station alts that spawned from it.

wawawa, I want a way to stop people ninjaing my saps lol

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Why I remowe content?

But if you wanted to say, the Alpha marketers will be in trouble then yes (me included also). They will. But the issues is we would need PVP, and we would need targets for it.

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9 (edited by Race Drones 2014-10-12 15:19:40)

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Khader Khan wrote:

...There should be 3 locations around a base (Saps)...
...Now we would need another mechanic for deciding who wins the OP...

What about using the "Two-Man Rule" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule) but with 3 guys?.

In the 1 hour sap time duration, every 5 minutes you have a chance to enter the same 4 digits numerical code in a windows and set the sap in your favour, but you only have the last 2 seconds (from that 5 seconds window) to click the enter button in the 3 windows with the same code from the 3 chars.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Just remove the intrusion charges for beta, no scan times known. We will see how this small change, will make a big difference for the better.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Ville wrote:

Which leads me to ask a few questions:

Should 1 guy in an assault bot be able to complete disrupt an entire corporations production in a station because he hits a SAP during an off time and makes the station lose up to 2 production facilities efficiencies?

Should a 1 Man corporation be able to own a station in a pvp MMO and hold it?

Good questions! I like you Ville.     These are simply my thoughts on the matter coming from other PVP games (and designing a few massive catastrophic failures myself)

Should 1 guy in an assault bot be able to complete disrupt an entire corporations production in a station because he hits a SAP during an off time and makes the station lose up to 2 production facilities efficiencies?

-- Yes and no.  1 guy should be able to screw with things proportionally to his strength and knowledge.  Unless we start talking about adding in sabotage mechanics there is only so much 1 guy should be able to do.  Subsequently, 100 guys showing up should be a different story. This is probably the gameplay the devs were striving for on Gamma.  Beta appears to be a progression towards Gamma. There is a lot of room to interpret what that progression means - but it seems it should at least feel like that. This is why I was suggesting making the SAPs harder at some point to force multiple people to be involved in an attack.  That might be misguided but eh the discussion is fun.

Should a 1 man corp be able to own a station in a pvp MMO and hold it?
-- No.  The only games this is possible on are horribly broken and inevitably fail.  The definition of balance is ensuring an even distribution of power.   i.e  1 person shouldn't be able to effectively own that large of a percentage of territory in a sandbox of this size.   

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

So one man corps taking saps?

That's a population problem not a game design problem.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

"sandbox of this size."   

You're absolutely right that it's a population problem though.

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Anyone should be able to hold a terminal if they can defend the saps. If they aren't there to defend the saps they shouldn't have the terminal. That's whatthe devs intended and that's how its working. If you aren't capable of stopping one assault from taking your sap every 8-16 hours then you should stay in archage

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Gwyndor wrote:

Anyone should be able to hold a terminal if they can defend the saps. If they aren't there to defend the saps they shouldn't have the terminal. That's whatthe devs intended and that's how its working. If you aren't capable of stopping one assault from taking your sap every 8-16 hours then you should stay in archage

Yeah pretty much this, there's an easy way to stop one man corps owning stns, send two guys to fight them.

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Yet another PHM/CIR "We want moar content" thread, when you could have all the content you desire so simply.

It's not even about should 1 person be able to take a sap, but the fact that there's so few people in the game that 1 person can take a sap when there's no-one to defend.

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Ville wrote:

Station stability might "Sound" like a good idea, but was VERY poorly executed.  Because the bonuses for the stations do not provide enough reward in production efficiency to  justify moving a production out to a beta island without it being at 90~100% all the time.  It would be most efficient to just produce on Alpha, which is what most people do.  Fighting for SAPs is a fun mini game but like I said one guy in a waspish can cost a production corp millions.  Which is why no one lives in Beta.  Just for the Epi. 

How to fix these problems?  Stop rebalancing things.  Give new content to people, make the Stockpiles of bots and modules WORTHLESS by adding new tiers of goods, better bots.  Make those stockpiled assets move.  This is how you combat these items guys, not rebalancing content. 

But as long as 1 guy in an assault bot can jack up a corps logistics no one will live there.  Viva Intrusion 1.0!

I meant to add, yes stability is a bit *** and intrusion 2.0 makes me miss the days of the original intrusion system (which involved fights at 4am). But in terms of rebalancing you're wrong, its the right way to do it, this isn't a themepark MMO and I'm not sure why if you object to things being rebalanced, but don't object to them being made completely useless through power creep.

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Khader Khan wrote:
Burial wrote:

Not hard to protect an outpost from 1 assault.

Says the guy with no outposts... Says the guy who thinks 'waiting' is an effective strategy when the enemy shows up with a 'blob'.  One guy in an assault in the off timezone is all it takes to bring a station down up to 20 pts.

I know people don't like that the game unintentionally copies EVE mechanics but we really need to look at their ownership mechanics (which aren't perfect by a long shot). There should be 3 locations around a base (Saps) all should be destro with 3-5 x the current hp and more resists than current. When all 3 are destroyed the Real Sap goes live with in 12- 24 hours if taken the Outpost is put in to Contested (0%) its open to all.

Now we would need another mechanic for deciding who wins the OP like a very large Passive hack that counts per corp not per agent, Corp A has 3 agents in masked lights skirting Corp B 5 agents in Heavies. Of course 5 is more than 3 but the Sap will stay contested until only Corp A or B is the only corp in the Passive area for 2-3 hours. Timer pauses when other corp enters control area.

Once control is established the 3 Destro control points go live and process can be repeated.
Destro points should have a passive repair mechanic.
Destro points should produce a Gamma style alarm.

Now comes the problem of Sap loot. and old saps
Only agents from the owning corp gets access to a set of extra daily missions. Only the CEO gets a mission that would be difficult to complete alone but one that would drop up to a current full active hack drop. Other missions would include harvesting noralgis for PLs and mining epi for PLs, Combat missions with PVP ammo rewards.

Maybe Ville can put in some ideas on productions since I'm just a go getter when it comes to production.

Edit. Only 2 Beta stations can be held by one corp.


You know how many times you guys have thrown it in everyone's face that if you can't defend it you don't deserve it? Now you're saying that 1 guys shouldn't be able to take a sap in someone's "off time?" Give me a *** break. I'm gonna do it.... Yep, here it comes!!!!

If you can't even muster enough to defend against ONE *** ASSAULT, then maybe you don't deserve to hold that station.

Oh, no he didn't! Yes, I did, just use your argument against you.

Even if it's you guys attacking someone else's sap the exact same thing could be said. Again, the problem isn't with the mechanics, it's with the players, both the lack there-of and the blindly allying up because they're (to use sindics term) risk-adverse.

19 (edited by Jasmoba 2014-10-13 02:58:13)

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Smokeyii wrote:
Khader Khan wrote:
Burial wrote:

Not hard to protect an outpost from 1 assault.

Says the guy with no outposts... Says the guy who thinks 'waiting' is an effective strategy when the enemy shows up with a 'blob'.  One guy in an assault in the off timezone is all it takes to bring a station down up to 20 pts.

I know people don't like that the game unintentionally copies EVE mechanics but we really need to look at their ownership mechanics (which aren't perfect by a long shot). There should be 3 locations around a base (Saps) all should be destro with 3-5 x the current hp and more resists than current. When all 3 are destroyed the Real Sap goes live with in 12- 24 hours if taken the Outpost is put in to Contested (0%) its open to all.

Now we would need another mechanic for deciding who wins the OP like a very large Passive hack that counts per corp not per agent, Corp A has 3 agents in masked lights skirting Corp B 5 agents in Heavies. Of course 5 is more than 3 but the Sap will stay contested until only Corp A or B is the only corp in the Passive area for 2-3 hours. Timer pauses when other corp enters control area.

Once control is established the 3 Destro control points go live and process can be repeated.
Destro points should have a passive repair mechanic.
Destro points should produce a Gamma style alarm.

Now comes the problem of Sap loot. and old saps
Only agents from the owning corp gets access to a set of extra daily missions. Only the CEO gets a mission that would be difficult to complete alone but one that would drop up to a current full active hack drop. Other missions would include harvesting noralgis for PLs and mining epi for PLs, Combat missions with PVP ammo rewards.

Maybe Ville can put in some ideas on productions since I'm just a go getter when it comes to production.

Edit. Only 2 Beta stations can be held by one corp.


You know how many times you guys have thrown it in everyone's face that if you can't defend it you don't deserve it? Now you're saying that 1 guys shouldn't be able to take a sap in someone's "off time?" Give me a *** break. I'm gonna do it.... Yep, here it comes!!!!

If you can't even muster enough to defend against ONE *** ASSAULT, then maybe you don't deserve to hold that station.

Oh, no he didn't! Yes, I did, just use your argument against you.

Even if it's you guys attacking someone else's sap the exact same thing could be said. Again, the problem isn't with the mechanics, it's with the players, both the lack there-of and the blindly allying up because they're (to use sindics term) risk-adverse.


Dude go take a walk or something nobody saying anything about loosing stations.  You believe everything ppl post is some sort of attack against you or secret agenda.  WE DO NOT WANT POWER PROJECTIONS.  Global domination is fun but it not healthy for the game.  No we are not disbanding and no you can't have it w/o a fight

I do agree with some points but mainly I do believe low population is our main issue. 

Should 1 man hold territory.  The answer is no but if this happens then we do have serious problems.

20 (edited by Ville 2014-10-13 03:34:29)

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

This is my point:  In the current mechanic during an Alliance offtime 1 guy in an assault bot can completely hinder the corps main incentive to move out to Beta.  So if an Alliance wants to properly "hold" a strong industrial presence they need to develop into an alliance that can cover 3 major timezones. 

Everyone here wants to make it so that 3 or 5 guys in one timezone can hold a Terminal.  The problem is the suggested ideas is not scalable with size AND its one sided.  Because 3 to 5 guys who live in an area could flip a terminal and station through dedication, but how long does that last?  Until you flip a station then those 3 to 5 guys once again will need to take time out of their game play to then DEFEND and WAIT and do a mission item.  <----That doesn't sound like fun.  In fact that sounds like the people suggesting those ideas never CTA'd for 4 days straight before.

*Edited Note* -  Those 3 to 5 guys would be subjected to that one same guy in an assault bot hitting Their Saps in the off time zone, creating a perpetual loop of chaotic mini game of capture the station, leading to even worse, more incentive to join a major alliance and create a super blob.

What I liked, was Owning a station and having an enemy live out of it and you collected rent.  We can't do this in the current setup because if the stations are open then opportunists would be open season for hitting SAPs, which would be fun for like the 5 to 7 dudes who like hitting the saps and moving along, but would completely disrupt an organized alliance ownership of an Island.  Because they would again be bombard constantly with the SAPs going up and down.  Hindering any kind of incentive to want to live out there.

And to address our Alliance owning all the stations, what do you think is the logical progression for a PVP alliance in a territorial warfare game?  It's to get pvp and gobble up as much land as you can to produce those Major fights.  Let's face it you don't get heavy mech/ewar mech fights out of 100 % SAPs, you don't get a 20 on 20 battle after an assault bot ghanks a miner or a harvestor.  And there needs to be an active charismic leader on the other side of the fence who understands that a Strong Industrial backbone is key before sticking their neck out in the PVP arena and biting off more than they can chew while practicing and having fun.

They key to all this is having fun.  Which we are all having very little of in this game.  The vets don't want to twirl around in light bots and the newbs can't run heavys.  So we have this massive player base GAP.  We have Brand new guys and then theres the bitter vets.  There is no enthusiastic middle ground.

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21 (edited by Dazamin 2014-10-13 12:04:16)

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Ville wrote:

What I liked, was Owning a station and having an enemy live out of it and you collected rent.  We can't do this in the current setup because if the stations are open then opportunists would be open season for hitting SAPs,

And to address our Alliance owning all the stations, what do you think is the logical progression for a PVP alliance in a territorial warfare game?  It's to get pvp and gobble up as much land as you can to produce those Major fights.

I don't see anything wrong with the first point, you open up your stn, it makes it easier to attack, makes perfect sense, you can still rent it out, there's just downsides to that, which is as it should be.

On the second point, getting PvP and gobbling up all the land are not the same thing, and they can work against each other. If you want fights on beta, people have to live on beta, if you own all the stns, they won't. I mean there's nothing wrong with taking all stns, but then to complain there's no one to fight, well ofc theres not, that's just the reality of the situation.

Re: Owning a Beta Station.

TL;DR version:

All the steamlings left to play something else and it's back to 20 dudes.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Historically there were early access and noobs. Then it was vets and nex the great eve exodus.  Most of them went back to eve. Now we have vets and steamlings.

Obviously retention is a problem.  We need noobs to stay long enough to be the middle men.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

Dazamin wrote:
Ville wrote:

What I liked, was Owning a station and having an enemy live out of it and you collected rent.  We can't do this in the current setup because if the stations are open then opportunists would be open season for hitting SAPs,

And to address our Alliance owning all the stations, what do you think is the logical progression for a PVP alliance in a territorial warfare game?  It's to get pvp and gobble up as much land as you can to produce those Major fights.

I don't see anything wrong with the first point, you open up your stn, it makes it easier to attack, makes perfect sense, you can still rent it out, there's just downsides to that, which is as it should be.

On the second point, getting PvP and gobbling up all the land are not the same thing, and they can work against each other. If you want fights on beta, people have to live on beta, if you own all the stns, they won't. I mean there's nothing wrong with taking all stns, but then to complain there's no one to fight, well ofc theres not, that's just the reality of the situation.

There's plenty of people to fight in AA.

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Re: Owning a Beta Station.

do they really shorten it AA? some years ago that was AutoAssault... miss that game

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