Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Celebro: it is an issue, but one thing at a time, otherwise we're looking at development chaos again. Obviously we don't have anything to balance "risk vs reward"-wise if we don't have a working gamma mechanic in the first place.

Thanks for reply that's all I wanted to hear. smile

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352

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Can you make sure turrets shoot if what your hiding behind is destructible (such as plants). I see people setting up triandulus walls to hide behind which is dumb.

I'll see what we can do about that. The issue is of course terrain LoS vs destructible LoS. They should only shoot in the latter case.

Agreed. And while your on it tell EW turrets that big_smile - draining a base with arkhe's as ewar turrets neut the walls was a major tactic previously.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Gamma revamp testing

Ville wrote:

So instead of two shotting a heavy turrets will three shot us now?

You're going to have losses, I think that should be a fact in case of a siege. If you're not losing anything then it's not a good system.

But obviously it needs to be possible, that's where we need to achieve the right balance.

354 (edited by Ville 2014-07-09 16:16:48)

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

Like so a group of plated heavys show up to attack a base.  1 explosion in the middle of the group and chain explosions rip through the middle of the group.  GG

And they do that strategy on purpose, yes? Let's not play the stupid player here, I know you're not smile

I'm not following zoom.  How do we as players attack something with more range than us (even ewar with Nexus)?  And we can't hide.

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355

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

So instead of two shotting a heavy turrets will three shot us now?

You're going to have losses, I think that should be a fact in case of a siege. If you're not losing anything then it's not a good system.

But obviously it needs to be possible, that's where we need to achieve the right balance.

I disagree whole heartedly.  It takes staging time to do a seige.  If I'm going to lose half my fleet (billion Nic) for the sake of just killing a base that will drop what the owner hasn't deleted yet.  I'm going to be heavily discouraged to ever attack a base.  I'm going to physically LOSE money to pvp.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

LOSE money to pvp?

So in what game do you gain money from PVP?

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Ville wrote:

I'm not following zoom.  How do we as players attack something with more range than us (even ewar with Nexus)?  And we can't hide.

1. Numbers, turret numbers will be limited now. 10 turrets can't track 40 people at once.
2. However well we can improve the turret AI, it will still be just an AI. Wait who is attacked, apply remote support, march on with the rest.

You're thinking of sieges like some tiptoeing ninja operation, but that shouldn't be the case.

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

I'm not following zoom.  How do we as players attack something with more range than us (even ewar with Nexus)?  And we can't hide.

1. Numbers, turret numbers will be limited now. 10 turrets can't track 40 people at once.
2. However well we can improve the turret AI, it will still be just an AI. Wait who is attacked, apply remote support, march on with the rest.

You're thinking of sieges like some tiptoeing ninja operation, but that shouldn't be the case.


Perhaps have the Turret AI not agro support bots or haulers?  see what I did there

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Gamma revamp testing

Rage Blackout wrote:

see what I did there

Yes, take that to the other topic please.

Re: Gamma revamp testing

Ville wrote:

I'm going to be heavily discouraged to ever attack a base.  I'm going to physically LOSE money to pvp.

What would the owner of the base you're sieging have to say about this then?

Re: Gamma revamp testing

Could it be possible to look again, the possibility of not deleting items from bases that are under siege.

I know this is a touchy subject because HUN deleted three years of gear, but still it is a motivator to attack vs. not attack.

At this point, the only reason to attack is META as in i want to kill Jitas base to make him a sad panda.

know what I am saying?

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Gamma revamp testing

There is no point in denying the deletion of items, you have so many options to take them out of the base and destroy them wherever/however.

And no, we can't deny taking the items out, as that would defeat the purpose of emergency phases in the first place.

Re: Gamma revamp testing

I know.  I can dream though.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

364

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

I'm going to be heavily discouraged to ever attack a base.  I'm going to physically LOSE money to pvp.

What would the owner of the base you're sieging have to say about this then?

Are you trolling me? 

Here's how I'm going to abuse this.  I have 27 total terminals.  I am going to build 3 terminals on 9 random islands. Since heavy losses are expected, I'm not going to build facilities just defenses.  Why?  Cause the 9 random islands will be blocked from mu enemies.

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365

Re: Gamma revamp testing

1 month in every gamma will be base capped.  And new players will be blocked from seeing gamma.

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366

Re: Gamma revamp testing

That's like saying beating someone to death with a wrench is OK because the person who made the wrench should have planned in advance for that despite it being clear what the wrench is actually for. In fact its irresponsible of the wrench designer and totally not the fault of the person holding the wrench as they were just using a tool that's badly designed.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

I'm going to be heavily discouraged to ever attack a base.  I'm going to physically LOSE money to pvp.

What would the owner of the base you're sieging have to say about this then?

Are you trolling me? 

Here's how I'm going to abuse this.  I have 27 total terminals.  I am going to build 3 terminals on 9 random islands. Since heavy losses are expected, I'm not going to build facilities just defenses.  Why?  Cause the 9 random islands will be blocked from mu enemies.

...are you?

"Cause the 9 random islands will be blocked from mu enemies."

How? I'm asking because that's one of the main things we're trying to make impossible here in the new system.

Furthermore, why would anyone:
1. ...build a base that's just defenses, what would be the purpose of it?
2. ...attack such a base?

368

Re: Gamma revamp testing

I'm just pointing out obvious abuse, please grow up Jita and act like an adult.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Also, please can we stop with this "oh my, new players won't be able to step on gammas in their first week, that's broken". No it's not, gamma is not meant for new players, it's currently an endgame feature.

370

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

What would the owner of the base you're sieging have to say about this then?

Are you trolling me? 

Here's how I'm going to abuse this.  I have 27 total terminals.  I am going to build 3 terminals on 9 random islands. Since heavy losses are expected, I'm not going to build facilities just defenses.  Why?  Cause the 9 random islands will be blocked from mu enemies.

...are you?

"Cause the 9 random islands will be blocked from mu enemies."

How? I'm asking because that's one of the main things we're trying to make impossible here in the new system.

Furthermore, why would anyone:
1. ...build a base that's just defenses, what would be the purpose of it?
2. ...attack such a base?

1.  Same reason 1 alliance holds all the betas.
2. If you make the bases OP, then afk terminals are going to pop up everywhere.

Players hate losing pixels.  These are the players who'd rather sit on alpha and twiddle thumbs than put anything on the line. 

Zoom currently its an act of congress to get 40 dudes together to go do anything.  If you think that those 40 are going to attack a base knowing 20 will be killed, all the defender has to do is undock 5 and fight the remaining crew off.

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371

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Also, please can we stop with this "oh my, new players won't be able to step on gammas in their first week, that's broken". No it's not, gamma is not meant for new players, it's currently an endgame feature.


I'm not saying they are going to be there in the first week!  I'm saying they won't be there at all and we will have highly unusable land mass just like before!  And, please can we stop with this "oh my, what will the base owner think when he's getting attacked, that's broken".  Because what he's going to think is "***, I better be there for my reinforcement timers."

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Ville wrote:

Players hate losing pixels.

That's what I was trying to point out when you said you're not going to attack a base when that means you're going to have losses.

The attacked base IS going to have losses, so why would be this one-sided?

AFK bases: the proposed reactor feeding mechanic is supposed to make this harder to pull off.

373

Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

Players hate losing pixels.

That's what I was trying to point out when you said you're not going to attack a base when that means you're going to have losses.

The attacked base IS going to have losses, so why would be this one-sided?

AFK bases: the proposed reactor feeding mechanic is supposed to make this harder to pull off.

Oh we ARE doing fuel >.<

Why would it be one sided.  TWO word answer:

Reinforcement Timers.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Ville wrote:

Why would it be one sided.  TWO word answer:

Reinforcement Timers.

Yes, the two things that should be in balance here are...

Defender's side assets: buildings, storage content, defending robots lost, after ALL the reinforcement phases are gone.
Attacker's side assets: attacking robots lost, during ALL the reinforcement phases.

(And this with the premise that the attacker can pull all the reinforcements in a row.)

Or in other words, you're taking one-sided losses yourself with the hope that you can destroy the base in the end, which could make up for your losses that you have suffered up to that point. But it's important to note here that your gain doesn't have to be of material or monetary nature, it can be political, e-peen, entertainment, etc.

375

Re: Gamma revamp testing

So from the developers stand point, your idea of attacking a gamma base is to split up into multiple little groups and zerg into base?

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