26 (edited by Annihilator 2010-12-23 17:40:09)

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

i miss the random NPC Pirate patrols from Earth&Beyond, that started to camp a certain gate or station in beta...

Imagine, your sitting on a teleporter with your scout, and suddenly a high-lvl npc group comes through to kill you, and leaves again when your gone or dead.
NPCs with shields wink

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

L1fe3looD wrote:
Artem Mauve wrote:

I think everyone is asking for exactly the opposite of what they want.

Surely if you don't like camping, making the choke point smaller (no safe region, just a teleporter land point) makes camping even more advantageous/"profitable".

What you should be asking for is larger safe zones, with complicated terrain-specific edges, so that the edge of the safe zone cannot be effectively camped, and the attackers can choose from several reasonable attack routes.


just....no.

the whole point is that you shouldn't be able to jump what you want in, take all the time you need, set up, and give yourself all the intel and advantage you need to move forward. You should also not be able to simply put eyes on a gate in an arkhe and leave it there to get 100% perfect, easy intel.

I see your point.. if the invul timer is shorter than the jump timer then jumping in and out has absolutely 0% chance of losing anything.

Maybe 5 seconds is to long.. but if you jump into ours (yours) don't you think they should risk something?

if the invul timer is longer than the jump timer then the timers need to be lowered drastically so that you cannot get all the intel you need just by repeat jumping in.

30s for both.
..

I personally think if you jump into a PVP zone.. you should be forced to experience PVP.......

The only response I can think of is.. 'it was an accident i jumped into the pvp island'.. and that reason is just loaded with fail.

let me know what you think.

please reply

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Let's talk about this as if there were no teleporters, just terrain. Currently, there are three  "natural fortresses", connected by extremely narrow choke point peninsulas (that is, teleporters) with width (that is diameter) in the tens of meters. The syndicate protection boundary also coincides with these choke points. Gremrod proposes a time-based rather than space-based change to the syndicate protection boundary. I believe the effect of Gremrod's change would be to widen the safe-surveyable zone somewhat, though scouts/surveyers would have to periodically jump back and forth in order to survey.

The various people who are suggesting removing the safe zones are recommending moving the syndicate protection boundary closer to the narrowest point of these choke points. I don't see how anyone could think that would encourage interesting, dynamic pvp.

If we move the syndicate protection boundary away from the teleporter (either remove syndicate protection on the alpha island in an irregular region around the alpha side, or extend syndicate protection out into the beta island in an irregular region around the beta side), then both the attacker and defenders jobs become more difficult - which point is best to attack? what strategy is best to cover this area? - and there's at least a chance of interesting, dynamic pvp.

Basically, what I'm saying is: teleporters are terrain. They're really extreme choke points, and that very extremity makes their presence dominate the strategies around that point, heavily favoring very boring, obvious strategies. Moving the syndicate protection boundary away from the teleporters would dilute their effects on the gameplay.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

tRens wrote:

The only response I can think of is.. 'it was an accident i jumped into the pvp island'.. and that reason is just loaded with fail.

This could actually be an issue. The names and destinations of the teleports can be very confusing when you are new. If they do remove the safe zone, the teleporter should warn you that your leaving Syndicate protection (just like Eve does). Something like;

"Warning. The destination you have selected is camped. You will be flagged and ganked before your screen even loads, are you sure you want to do this?"

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Duncan Blackmoor wrote:

Yeah please remove the pvp immunity at stations and teleporters in the pvp islands. Make it temporary instead of permanent for instance.

They already added the "I cant destroy my stuff in my cargo when I am about to die" feature. So they should remove safe zones too.

I would love to see Perpetuum fully turn into Darkfall, at least they made a right step with last patch. tongue

31 (edited by Blaster 2010-12-23 19:22:06)

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

This is what I just brainstormed:


1) Right after you teleport to beta island, you will get only 90% invulnerability to any damage which drops down by 10% each 10 seconds automatically. So after 90 seconds you have no invulnerability to any damage. Plus same would go for any Damage you make 10% damage right after you teleport and it goes up to 100% in 90 seconds.

It doesnt need to be 10% per 10 seconds, it also doesnt have to be linear.


2) Basicly same idea just without the timer, but added the "Range of a teleporter control"
So if you are 0 m within the teleporter, you recieve 10% damage incomming, but also hit for only 10% of your damage. Within 200m you would get 50% and hit for 50%, etc...


Pros: Takes out the Arkhe spies out of game. Makes the squad vs squad fights even

Cons: Suggest any, I have no idea.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Actually, what about this:

* Remove the safe zone at the teleporters, so you have to blind jump into Beta island and can get WTFPWNED by a blob camp before your screen even loads.

* When you jump FROM Beta island TO Alpha island, you are flagged for PvP for 5 minutes and can get WTFPWNED by a carebear blob camp before your screen even loads.

I'm assuming Alpha stations will be like Jita in EVE - the major hub of all trading. PvPers will eventually need to bring their stuff into Alpha to sell and restock.

It creates a beautiful circle of destruction: carebears get killed when they go into Beta islands to harvest resources, and leet PvPers get killed when they teleport into Alpha islands to sell/restock at the trading hubs.

If this change was made, I bet you would get a lot more carebears into PvP.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Not Sure wrote:

Actually, what about this:

* Remove the safe zone at the teleporters, so you have to blind jump into Beta island and can get WTFPWNED by a blob camp before your screen even loads.

* When you jump FROM Beta island TO Alpha island, you are flagged for PvP for 5 minutes and can get WTFPWNED by a carebear blob camp before your screen even loads.

I'm assuming Alpha stations will be like Jita in EVE - the major hub of all trading. PvPers will eventually need to bring their stuff into Alpha to sell and restock.

It creates a beautiful circle of destruction: carebears get killed when they go into Beta islands to harvest resources, and leet PvPers get killed when they teleport into Alpha islands to sell/restock at the trading hubs.

If this change was made, I bet you would get a lot more carebears into PvP.

What about this - Remove Alpha islands and replace them with Beta islands. Remove all the safe zones, make people at station able to lock people outside of station who are camping it.

Cheers.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Blaster wrote:

What about this - Remove Alpha islands and replace them with Beta islands. Remove all the safe zones, make people at station able to lock people outside of station who are camping it.

Cheers.

So you get home from work, log into Perpetuum, check immediate station vicinity, no one within locking distance. Accept mission, undock from station, 20 reds 400m away start chasing you. They catch and destroy you within 30 seconds. Log off, play another game.

The problem is, you can't force everyone to be PvPers. You have to appeal to the different playstyles: soloists, objective-driven PvPers, industrialists, griefers, mission-runners, explorers, etc., if you want your game to flourish.

Taking away the safe zones without giving players a way to do missions/mining in relative safety makes the game a griefer's paradise. This is fine for griefers, because they don't care about the health of a game. If the game implodes, they'll just move on to the next game that has the pvp mechanics they like.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Not Sure wrote:
Blaster wrote:

What about this - Remove Alpha islands and replace them with Beta islands. Remove all the safe zones, make people at station able to lock people outside of station who are camping it.

Cheers.

So you get home from work, log into Perpetuum, check immediate station vicinity, no one within locking distance. Accept mission, undock from station, 20 reds 400m away start chasing you. They catch and destroy you within 30 seconds. Log off, play another game.

The problem is, you can't force everyone to be PvPers. You have to appeal to the different playstyles: soloists, objective-driven PvPers, industrialists, griefers, mission-runners, explorers, etc., if you want your game to flourish.

Taking away the safe zones without giving players a way to do missions/mining in relative safety makes the game a griefer's paradise. This is fine for griefers, because they don't care about the health of a game. If the game implodes, they'll just move on to the next game that has the pvp mechanics they like.


I would not log off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB48NVF4Xvg

This is the game I played as first "FFA full loot pvp no safe zones" game. I have been doing the griefing, griefing has been done to me too. I dont cry, I just got used to it and didnt find better PvP game yet. (Why I didnt stay there then? I was in finance crisis and had to sell my few months old account for some serious moneyz.)

When I first found out that people can TRASH their stuff in cargo before they die, I was like wtf is that... and this is supposed to be a PvP game which encourages PvP??? And now see yourself, they just made right changes with last patch and I have no doubts we will see less and less safe zones in the future if the devs still want to keep the PvP players in this game.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Blaster wrote:

When I first found out that people can TRASH their stuff in cargo before they die, I was like wtf is that... and this is supposed to be a PvP game which encourages PvP??? And now see yourself, they just made right changes with last patch and I have no doubts we will see less and less safe zones in the future if the devs still want to keep the PvP players in this game.

You know that players can still delete thier cargo right? They don't enter combat until you make an agressive act on them. This will on average give them 5-6 seconds to delete.

Are you OK with that, is that acceptable?

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Arga wrote:
Blaster wrote:

When I first found out that people can TRASH their stuff in cargo before they die, I was like wtf is that... and this is supposed to be a PvP game which encourages PvP??? And now see yourself, they just made right changes with last patch and I have no doubts we will see less and less safe zones in the future if the devs still want to keep the PvP players in this game.

You know that players can still delete thier cargo right? They don't enter combat until you make an agressive act on them. This will on average give them 5-6 seconds to delete.

Are you OK with that, is that acceptable?

Yes that is buddy.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Blaster wrote:

Yes that is buddy.


Excellent, so I can count on your support when the first QQ thread starte up about how deleting is still broken!

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

So what's to prevent throwaway alts bieng used even if the safe zones are removed?

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Jita wrote:

So what's to prevent throwaway alts bieng used even if the safe zones are removed?

They get killed and have to run back there.  If anything its just harder to scout.  If they kill your scout you dont have eyes on them until you run your *** back over there.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Jita,

Nothing to stop that. But the alt won't be able to just sit and watch troop movements. But it will become standard practice to throw a sacrificial arkhe through the gate to see what's there. The beta group will already know you're coming because they will have eyes on the alpha side.


The only thing removing the safe zones does is make it mandatory to camp the gate.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

how about when u jump through the tp you cannot see any thing on landmarks outside the safe zone u can still visually see of course but your landmarks is offline to see you must leave the safe zone and are either unable to enter it for so many seconds or become vulnerable to attack for so many seconds

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

before any change of safety-zones or protection-timer:

Player spawning on terrain AFTER loading screen

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

just moar gates will do im not overly worried about the bluezones  i dont think any change will stop people from greifing or camping em anyway

anything that give both sides the ability to supprise each other is good
as it is now is who ever is already on the island has the advantage of knowing whats coming while the attackers are still prety much guessing at the respose for the local carbears( unless the infiltrate the intel channel:D)

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Removing safe zones is a very bad idea.

Perpetuum would become like Eve Online: most of the combat involves gate camping. This is very boring and predictable for everyone.

A big advantage of Perpetuum over Eve is that combat takes place on variable landscapes.

However, one way of giving M2S what they want and preserving the use of landscapes is to remove the radar (perhaps keeping it for specialised scouting bots) thus enabling ambushes.

46 (edited by Gobla 2010-12-27 16:21:39)

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

I think the safezones are there because currently the teleporters are major chokepoints.

There's only 3 entries into a beta island so it's relatively easy to camp them all.

What could maybe work is to create a moving entry point. Create a function that goes from time -> coordinate. Draw a line all along the edge of the beta islands, a line that doesn't get within 50m of any blocked terrain. The starting point is at 0:00:00 the end is at 2:30:00 or so. Use server-time to determine at which point on the line the current time is and deposit the player at a random spot in 50m of that point.

The line should consist of only a few long straight pieces for easier calculations. It would probably be a *** to create such a function but once made it wouldn't be much more taxing then a damage calculation.

Since there's no set entry-point gatecamps become a whole lot harder. Only on leaving would you still have to go to the teleporter, which of course could still be camped but at this point you could use many tactics to get them off the gate ( lure them away, wait for another force to engage, go to another teleporter etc. )

*Insert really awesome sig here*

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Gremrod wrote:

I think it should be.

Jump timer - 40s
Invul timer - 45s

Someone should be able to jump back safely. Make it a player choice to either continue/engage/teleport back/etc.


So simple it would work....

Maybe increase the invul to 50s in case of lag or something but otherwise a sound solution that could be very easy to implement...

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

i may remind you,
that the longer-no-jump then protection-timer is in there because someone complained in beta, that their prey could use the inner teleporters to buy time or to get away.

since we have the "no teleport with pvp-flag" implemented, i dont know why that jump-timer is still in there, and why its longer then the syndicate protection at all.

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Annihilator wrote:

i may remind you,
that the longer-no-jump then protection-timer is in there because someone complained in beta, that their prey could use the inner teleporters to buy time or to get away.

since we have the "no teleport with pvp-flag" implemented, i dont know why that jump-timer is still in there, and why its longer then the syndicate protection at all.


dont you remember the totally insane mind numbing experience of having people jump back and forth through porters for ever ?
you couldnt kill them but they couldn't get away so it just came down to who ever gave up 1st
much like people warping round to random  belts and planets except you had no way to stop them from warping

Re: Gate Camping Perpetuum endorsed sport

Gobla wrote:

I think the safezones are there because currently the teleporters are major chokepoints. There's only 3 entries into a beta island so it's relatively easy to camp them all.

What could maybe work is to create a moving entry point.

I think the 3 chokepoints are the main issue. PvP would be much more interesting when it happens on the whole island and not only on 3 dedicated spots on each beta island.

My idea would not be to use a moving entry point, but give the options of several entry points. Using the teleporter (the guards on alpha-island will see you) should give you a choice of several target locations, e.g. the coordinates of all squares on a 1/3 length of the island coast. That would probably mean something like 50 target locations per teleporter which are in good view distance from each other.

- The defender wouldn’t have to sit on the teleporter, but patrol a larger perimeter.
- Small PvP-groups could sneak in between those patrols.
- Large forces might get some time to organise before being spotted.
- Reactive defence forces after a spotting have to hunt their enemy down, guarantee to have a battleground somewhere on the island terrain and not only at the teleporter.
- No syndicate protection. If you want to get out you have to fight your way back to the off-island teleporter.
- Mining and NPC-hunting on beat island will always have the risk of being attacked by a previously unnoticed group, which is not as boring as it is right now.