251 (edited by Burial 2014-06-25 15:11:58)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

More EW with less strength, less EW with more strength. Suppressors still untouched. How do you see it fix anything? It doesn't.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

Why do Heavy mechs have 85 Sensor Strength while everything else in-game is 100+?

They are meant to be countered by EWar by design.

you can say the same thing about light combat bots vs. heavy mechs.
By design, the heavy mechs should have a hard time against a few light bots without dedicated equip especially against them.

well, last time i checked, i had no issues killing light bots before they could even lock me or get in my range (well, except unarmed shield tanked ones, but those do not exist in pve)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Gwyndor wrote:

Ecm is balanced, but not eccm.

To kill a bot you use damage, to stop damage you use a tank of some sort or you use ewar to negate/slow damage, to stop ewar you bring more ewar, to... Wait... More ewar?

Yes, in the "other" game, the primary target for a ewar pilot is the enemy ewar.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

254 (edited by Lemon 2014-06-25 17:27:28)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I have seen this situation enough times to know what is coming. Alf has to make a change, due to the PLAYERS being unable to adapt or overcome the current combat style. This is under review because it has shown the average player cannot handle or counter this aspect of the game.

Alf do you need any info because its apparent you want to balance this around the lower end. What are we wanting to achieve with theses changes?

Stating 2x SA and 2x ECCM as the counter to e-war is the same as saying a full headslots of repair tunings counter a DPS fit.


Ozy wrote:

Edit: Before the wrong stuff gets focused on, the point of the above example is not that superior numbers win, but that countering ewar with ECCMs is currently not working well enough. If RSAs were common for all bots, this wouldn't be an issue, really, because those two additional headslots make all the difference--but RSAs aren't really common anymore.

If you payed as much attention to our fits and composition as hinted you would know that we still have the same number of RSA's for our bots as we did before. We just have less bots overall.

Hell, I assign my RSA roles and bots before I even start assigning e-war

Undefeated 2013
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255

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Oh my God!  Your adding tuners into the vagabond fit!!  No wonder your numbers are inflated!!

Your using a fit no one uses in game!  Why?  Cause you vagabond only has 1 ECM or no tank/range.

WTH Burial?  We don't even use tunnings, dude wth??

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ville wrote:

We don't even use tunnings, dude wth??

Transparent why Syndic only wants tuners touched.

257

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:
Ville wrote:

We don't even use tunnings, dude wth??

Transparent why Syndic only wants tuners touched.

Dude you were Throwing biased numbers out there!  How many tunnings were you stacking 2? 3? 4?  You completely made up an entire argument around a problem that doesn't exist!

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258 (edited by Race Drones 2014-06-25 17:50:58)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Lemon wrote:

I have seen this situation enough times to know what is coming. Alf has to make a change, due to the PLAYERS being unable to adapt or overcome the current combat style. This is under review because it has shown the average player cannot handle or counter this aspect of the game.

I can see it coming a game where only the biggest sword is the best, a fantasy game where the level 90 char (with the biggest sword) crushes small chars.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Race Drones wrote:
Lemon wrote:

I have seen this situation enough times to know what is coming. Alf has to make a change, due to the PLAYERS being unable to adapt or overcome the current combat style. This is under review because it has shown the average player cannot handle or counter this aspect of the game.

I can see it coming a game where only the biggest sword is the best, a fantasy game where the level 90 char (with the biggest sword) crushes small chars.

hmm, compare MK2 bots and t4 maxed extensions with MK1 bots and t1 early extensions.... what exactly do you see IN THE FUTURE?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

260

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Devs, why do you refuse to test the actual numbers and combat situations on the test server with player demonstration?

Devs, why do you want to leave EWAR pilots completely vulnerable to any DPS bots, unable in any way to defend themselves with those new changes?

Devs, why do you want to make it so that starting characters are going to be completely useless in the EWAR department on the battlefield, balancing around endgame numbers?

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:
Race Drones wrote:
Lemon wrote:

I have seen this situation enough times to know what is coming. Alf has to make a change, due to the PLAYERS being unable to adapt or overcome the current combat style. This is under review because it has shown the average player cannot handle or counter this aspect of the game.

I can see it coming a game where only the biggest sword is the best, a fantasy game where the level 90 char (with the biggest sword) crushes small chars.

hmm, compare MK2 bots and t4 maxed extensions with MK1 bots and t1 early extensions.... what exactly do you see IN THE FUTURE?

My Economic efficiency growing!.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

262

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Lemon wrote:

I have seen this situation enough times to know what is coming. Alf has to make a change, due to the PLAYERS being unable to adapt or overcome the current combat style. This is under review because it has shown the average player cannot handle or counter this aspect of the game.

Alf do you need any info because its apparent you want to balance this around the lower end. What are we wanting to achieve with theses changes?

Stating 2x SA and 2x ECCM as the counter to e-war is the same as saying a full headslots of repair tunings counter a DPS fit.


Ozy wrote:

Edit: Before the wrong stuff gets focused on, the point of the above example is not that superior numbers win, but that countering ewar with ECCMs is currently not working well enough. If RSAs were common for all bots, this wouldn't be an issue, really, because those two additional headslots make all the difference--but RSAs aren't really common anymore.

If you payed as much attention to our fits and composition as hinted you would know that we still have the same number of RSA's for our bots as we did before. We just have less bots overall.

Hell, I assign my RSA roles and bots before I even start assigning e-war

Lemon that guy hasn't seen a Real fight ever, this is his biggest fight: http://www.perp-kill.net/related/256804

I stopped reading his posts when he took an injector on a vagabond and made a SS or video or w/e he did.

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263

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:
Ville wrote:

We don't even use tunnings, dude wth??

Transparent why Syndic only wants tuners touched.

We told you in page 1 they take up a spot in a vagabond that's needed elsewhere.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I like the idea of remote supporting modules in principle with one very BIG caveat. 

It should not be something that works well when done completely passively (lock, activate, forget). 

The reason is that it creates roles that are important for the fleet but mind-numbingly dull for the player.  The result is that either multiboxers (nexus alts) get some adavantage or some poor newbie gets the job of being the remote module monkey.

+1
-Confucius

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Passivity isn't an issue anymore because follow was taken out of the equation.

Actual players must fly the RR/RSA/ET bots now, the game hasn't even grown to that level just yet. We're the only ones that consistently fielding 4-5 RR/RSA/ET dedicated bots.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

1. Multiple ECCM's should pretty much nullify ewar.
2. Ewar tuners should negate ECCM.
3. Tweak ewar strength or bot sensor strength or whatever until you get the hit chances you think are balanced.
4. This brings balance to the Force and allows for multiple fits and counter-fits.

This topic has nothing to do with current political BS, current fleet compositions or some BS 1000m fights that are being thrown around. This topic has been around for as long as I have played perp. Whether CIR/PHM was playing or not. Ewar balancing has been a topic the entire time.

I'm just glad the DEV's are going to finally address it somehow...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

267 (edited by Burial 2014-06-26 01:49:00)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ville wrote:
Burial wrote:
Ville wrote:

We don't even use tunnings, dude wth??

Transparent why Syndic only wants tuners touched.

Dude you were Throwing biased numbers out there!  How many tunnings were you stacking 2? 3? 4?  You completely made up an entire argument around a problem that doesn't exist!

There's never any point having more than 1 tuner and sometimes it's more worthwhile to have none.

Weedy wrote:

Devs, why do you want to leave EWAR pilots completely vulnerable to any DPS bots, unable in any way to defend themselves with those new changes?

Masking, speed, range, no LOS. What do you mean by completely vulnerable to DPS bots?

268 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-06-26 03:24:02)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:
Ville wrote:
Burial wrote:

Transparent why Syndic only wants tuners touched.

Dude you were Throwing biased numbers out there!  How many tunnings were you stacking 2? 3? 4?  You completely made up an entire argument around a problem that doesn't exist!

There's never any point having more than 1 tuner and sometimes it's more worthwhile to have none.

Weedy wrote:

Devs, why do you want to leave EWAR pilots completely vulnerable to any DPS bots, unable in any way to defend themselves with those new changes?

Masking, speed, range, no LOS. What do you mean by completely vulnerable to DPS bots?

Maybe the point about being destroyed in 14 seconds. Keep playing 1v1 gayness. You're close to your goal of manipulating Devs and freeing up head slots for more damage tuners. roll

Next stop Ictus.

We shall be tug-of-war dps on dps heavy mech slug fest.

...and funny thing is, after nerfing all the dynamics out of the game you still suck. And you'll still lose. tongue

269 (edited by Ville 2014-06-26 11:48:02)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

You fit two eccms and you want to be immune to ecm.  Still got 4 head slots left in Seth mk2s and grofo mk2.

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270

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

Masking, speed, range, no LOS. What do you mean by completely vulnerable to DPS bots?

EWar bots with your proposed 'balanced' changes won't be able to do anything to stop DPS bots from killing them in a matter of seconds for being the glass-cannons as they are. LOS/masking/range don't matter in any way if there is a mech on your ***, you won't be able to stop it or delay it IN ANY WAY.

Basically, EWar pilots are pure PvP pilots. They ONLY thing they are useful for is PvP - their specialty is not needed in any other department of the game, not even ratting, because it is a lot more sufficient to bring an extra DPS bot. They can't farm, they can't make money, they are existing only by the support of others for the services they provide. If they don't have a miner account/DPS account, they cannot exist outside of corporation and outside of PvP - and I know quite a few people who only play a single dedicated EWar account. With your changes, by fitting 1-2 ECCM modules and putting 10-20k EP into ECCM skills, you want to render people who specced into this only role USELESS in the only field where they can do something.

It will basically destroy ANY need for those robots to be played by people and fielded in PvP, as they will be substituted by much better possible alternatives. IF those changes ever go live, free respecs must be handed out to accounts with skilled EWar, because they will be left useless in the ONLY area where they can have some use. And, EWar bots will also require a significant buff in some other area if they get nerfed EWar-wise, otherwise those bots will never be produced and bought and sold and fielded again. No new players will spec into EWar either, as when even veteran skills are going to be lackluster in the case of your suggested changes, newbie EWar pilots are just going to be a complete waste.

Also, EWar has NEVER been a problem - only several special people (or rather, a group of people) are rooting for those changes since a certain period of time. With that, devs also need to remember that on forums only a MINORITY of community is present (it is the same for the most games out there), and a MINORITY of that MINORITY is strongly trying to force these changes upon ALL OTHER players in-game. It is going to have huge repercussions if the bigger picture is actually taken into account - balance is only a small part of the question here, it is a question of gameplay, game design, and character development.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

ewar isnt a problem

we use it and we know how to counter it



so ...... figure it out

272

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ville wrote:

You fit two eccms and you want to be immune to ecm.  Still got 4 head slots left in Seth mk2s and grofo mk2.

and then you get messed up by a single suppressor. the crux is that double amps + double eccms are what's required to have a somewhat functioning ewar defense. for mechs, this means sacrificing all (but one, in the case of some mk2s) headslots and in the case of heavies you get 1-2 headslots to do other stuff with. Sure, RSAs could mitigate this, but dedicated logi hasn't been around since the nerf, at least according to the killboards.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

1 eccm, not two.    If you get Ewar focussed which is similar to DPS focussed, you are screwed anyways.


If anyone knows, I know 1 ECCM works pretty darn good.

274 (edited by Burial 2014-06-26 13:58:26)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

After 11 pages I don't really care anymore. People can rehash their opinions forever. The developers should KNOW this not ask people on the forums or the side with loudest mouths will get the game completely shaped for them.

You need to deeply understand your own game.

Hint: Tell me one fleet composition that has been effective other than EW heavy fleets.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Im not gonna teach you how to play

nice try though