Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Gwyndor wrote:
Tund Bungler wrote:
Gwyndor wrote:

Ecm is balanced, but not eccm.

To kill a bot you use damage, to stop damage you use a tank of some sort or you use ewar to negate/slow damage, to stop ewar you bring more ewar, to... Wait... More ewar?

To stop ewar you bring sensor amps and eccm.

That's not the counter that the "active pvpers" use. It's typically more chameleons and vagabonds.


Quoting this for prosperity. Try flying with the guys who win the fights and tell me what the fits are, quit hanging around in cap injected ewars.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Tbh I don't know anyone that uses that but it sounds good smile but theory crafting is never as good as what works in practice. I was talking about my personal experience trying to combat your corporation. Most of your fleets consist of a few dps waspish mk2 and then a few tackle lightc and a few ewar lights for ecm/suppression. The tackle and ewar is usually about the same proportion with only 1/5 being actual damage dealers. I'm not saying it is bad at all. The mechanics just dictate that it is the best standby fleet until you know what situation to fit for exactly.  If that is how the devs intend it then we will need to adapt to bring the same because its very difficult o counter the amount of ewar you are capable and do bring, using the mechanics of the game. If you would convo me in game I would enjoy a chat on tactics to try and bring something a little more competitive.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I just tried to convo you it says offline. Back to the winebox!

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

While at first we liked the idea of remote ECCM, recieving ECCM from outer sources further promotes tuner fittings because you can free up those slots. Under the current mechanics it has to be a continous effect, we could limit the number of effects affecting you, but the final boost should worth the slots sacrificed by others. Also we don't find much of teamwork in lock a given friendly activate modul and thats all.
(the idea is not thrown away tho.)

But as we said we are open for ideas, and discussion (we could have just patched it already weeks ago).
We also would like to avoid using of banhammer because of name callings and such post like "don't listen to them, listen to us, we know it better". The topic is full with this, and it is frustrating.

I explained it to you on Page 2: http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/101688/#p101688

I offered to demonstrate and explain it to you in 10 minutes on the test server.

That's not theorycrafting, thats 4 years of practical experience playing the game and min-maxing fleet-fits to perform a role.

This is my practical experience --> http://www.perp-kill.net/corp/Crimson%2 … m%20Reborn

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

While at first we liked the idea of remote ECCM, recieving ECCM from outer sources further promotes tuner fittings because you can free up those slots. Under the current mechanics it has to be a continous effect, we could limit the number of effects affecting you, but the final boost should worth the slots sacrificed by others. Also we don't find much of teamwork in lock a given friendly activate modul and thats all.
(the idea is not thrown away tho.)

But as we said we are open for ideas, and discussion (we could have just patched it already weeks ago).
We also would like to avoid using of banhammer because of name callings and such post like "don't listen to them, listen to us, we know it better". The topic is full with this, and it is frustrating.

Try being the players who your getting ready to effectively attempt to make me completely respect because your trying to "balance" something that's not broken.  Because you don't understand how the mechanic works in fleet fights.

I'm going to post this for the 4th time.

Fights are fought at 750M to 1K in anything involving heavy mechs.  To get those kind of ranges with a vagabond you need EW Nexus + Range extenders.  With a vagabond mark 1, to get this you will have FIVE head slots.  2 of those will be dedicated to range extenders. 3 ECMS.  Those 3 ECMS are not put on ONE target, they are spread out to 3 separate targets.  They do NOT stun lock people.  They only use to mitigate incoming damage the way its intended too.

If you factor in (random miss chance), and ECMS, currently on the live server this is what happens:

75% effectiveness with random miss chance
1 Minute interval the DPS is effective for 15 seconds.  With lock times of ~3 seconds you get 6|7 seconds worth of DPS time
50% effectiveness with random miss chance and 1 ECM
1 minute internal the DPS is effective for 30 seconds.  With lock times of ~3 seconds you get 24 Seconds of DPS time
25% effectiveness with random miss chance and 2 ECMS.
1 minute interval the DPS is effective for 45 seconds.  with lock times of ~3 seconds you get 39 seconds of DPS time.



What is frustrating to me is you people think that ewar mechs should be balanced around other DPS mechs.  Ewar mechs are for larger fleet engagments with Heavys(this is my experience).  This is just like dropping a Mesmer mk2 with gauss guns into the middle of assault bots and having the assault class pilots scream the Heavy is too OP he hits too hard!!!

--This is the giant elephant in the room no one wants to talk about, is the Head slots for the robots.  A Seth MK2 has 6 head slots while a Mesmer mk2 only has 5.  The Seth gets more room to effectively negate ewar.  So with this change will the Mesmer mk2 get another head slot?

I fit 2 ECCMs on a Seth MK2 and I can acceptable apply DPS on with decent range.

And the other thing:

If you add an extension based ECCM mechanic you increase the gap from the New player experience of ewar to the veteran player experience.  Making them less effective in pvp. 

@Alf Ewar is the only thing that prevents this game into turning into a straight, who brought more dudes game.  Ewar allows fewer people to out terrain, out tactic and out maneuver players in pvp.  The changes you have suggested with adding the ECCM extension will only hurt new players.  I have enough EP that I will drop an ECM/Masker and put a tuner on and still be effective.

Personally I don't like Tuners.  I don't run them.  I have to give up too much to run them Range/Tank/Anti Ewar.  They weren't effective use of that head slot but on the vagabond it will be a necessary evil.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/259635

2 ECCMS (T1) without an extension

Sadari Cam MK2: 8/23 (High level Jam Account)

Bleu Cam MK1: 2/14 (High Level)

2 T4 ECCMS and the skill L10.  You have 0/100, making jamms effectively useless.

So what does this mean?  We'll don't get in demob range cause gate campers will just camp gates demob something and sit there and DPS your face off with tank fits so even if they die they explode killing people.  This is what your ewar will help, tanked assaults demobbing and sitting there trollolling on someone shooting them in the face till they die.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Gwyndor wrote:

Tbh I don't know anyone that uses that but it sounds good smile but theory crafting is never as good as what works in practice. I was talking about my personal experience trying to combat your corporation. Most of your fleets consist of a few dps waspish mk2 and then a few tackle lightc and a few ewar lights for ecm/suppression. The tackle and ewar is usually about the same proportion with only 1/5 being actual damage dealers. I'm not saying it is bad at all. The mechanics just dictate that it is the best standby fleet until you know what situation to fit for exactly.  If that is how the devs intend it then we will need to adapt to bring the same because its very difficult o counter the amount of ewar you are capable and do bring, using the mechanics of the game. If you would convo me in game I would enjoy a chat on tactics to try and bring something a little more competitive.

The problem your guys have is confidence.  Too worried about losing a fleet or pixels, what makes a great fleet commander is when to push, when to run and when to say *** it and go all in.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

All EW mechs I've scanned from your side have injector.


Are you sure you didn't scan your own mechs? An ictus might have an injector when I think about it, but anything else? You sir just won the lolfit award.

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234 (edited by Norrdec 2014-06-25 11:55:20)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

30% doesnt sound so bad when you have a fleet of organised people. 1 ECCM is less than 30% damage output loss while still giving resistance to ECM.

Everything you do has influence in battle, doing 'less-than-smart-person' injector fit e-wars does also.

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235 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-06-25 11:56:29)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

When a heavy fits 2 ECCM he is already losing more than 30% of it's damage output if he would have gone with tuners otherwise. Ville, if you are saying it has no influence in battle you are a ***.

Damage TUNERS are a buff to default damage. You are not "loosing" damage when you DON'T fit them. Rather you are making a CHOICE between different types of buffs. As I have been saying for months YOU simply do not want to have to make sacrifices in your fitting choice. But choices are at the heart of balance.

You cant have 2-4 damage tuners every time you undock. If damage is the real issue and you need too many damage tuners to be effective then the issue is "damage" buffs not ewar.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

When a heavy fits 2 ECCM he is already losing more than 30% of it's damage output if he would have gone with tuners otherwise. Ville, if you are saying it has no influence in battle you are a ***.

dont forget that they will all roll with masking modules in the future according the other topic.

so, gropho/Mesmer with 2 sensor amps, 2 eccms and 1 masking module - headslots left ?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

When a heavy fits 2 ECCM he is already losing more than 30% of it's damage output if he would have gone with tuners otherwise. Ville, if you are saying it has no influence in battle you are a ***.

I understand your personally insulting me because I have real facts and evidence backing my claim.  I know its unpopular, and I know some times telling the truth is hard to do without being criticized.

I have ran tests in an unbiased manner in order to come to the conclusion.  I pulled data from personal testing and from perp-kill.  You will KILL new players getting into ewar.  That's as simple as it is.

Losing 30% damage overall to negate EWar is NOTHING compared to having to drop a masker/ECM to fight a Seth at range.  I have to give up my "Tank/Anti EWar" modules in order to compete against long range fits.

If they make THIS change then I will have to give up an ECM module to be able to be any use, effectively putting me at only 2 ECMs.  Going 1 for 1, or 1 for 2 players out in the field.  Your only favoring now Who brought more dudes.

So you give up 30% to negate me an additional target.

I been trying to tell you guys for years that ewar favors the smaller group.  No ville its a force multiplier the more you have the more it grows, incorrect.  You mix in module lag, with interference and overall coordination it takes more skill and it takes more tactics and it can be the most nerve wrecking thing ever.  Because you guys keep forgetting.  At 1KM ranges ALL you have to do is just "Back up and break lock and return."

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:
Burial wrote:

When a heavy fits 2 ECCM he is already losing more than 30% of it's damage output if he would have gone with tuners otherwise. Ville, if you are saying it has no influence in battle you are a ***.

dont forget that they will all roll with masking modules in the future according the other topic.

so, gropho/Mesmer with 2 sensor amps, 2 eccms and 1 masking module - headslots left ?

This is exactly correct.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

When a heavy fits 2 ECCM he is already losing more than 30% of it's damage output if he would have gone with tuners otherwise. Ville, if you are saying it has no influence in battle you are a ***.

It's called a trade-off.

-> By not fitting 2 ECCM's, you are vulnerable to EWar.
-> By fitting 2 ECCM's, you aren't vulnerable to EWar.

230/73= ~30% chance to jam.

ECM Tuning is the problem, not ECM itself.

Trying to balance the game by number of forum posts is the problem.

Devs have you considered playing the game? Why not have some fun-fights on the test server vs players who know the mechanics inside-out, you'd understand everything in half an hour.

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240 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-06-25 12:22:32)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:
Burial wrote:

When a heavy fits 2 ECCM he is already losing more than 30% of it's damage output if he would have gone with tuners otherwise. Ville, if you are saying it has no influence in battle you are a ***.

dont forget that they will all roll with masking modules in the future according the other topic.

so, gropho/Mesmer with 2 sensor amps, 2 eccms and 1 masking module - headslots left ?

A choice between buffs is still a choice. You don't NEED to fit maskers with detection nerf even if there is some NEW advantage.

Do you people think damage tuners are some inherent right? If so go beg Zoom to buff damage tuners or default damage. Quit trying to destroy ewar in your attempt to free up head slots for damage/range or whatever other buff gets you hot.

241

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

@Ville

Range of heavies with double amps and double eccms (+REs):

Mesmer/MK2: 403/463
Seth/MK2: 561/645
Gropho/MK2: 628/722

To actually get to 900m with a seth mk 2, you'll need four range extenders, which means that you're going to do crap damage (because zero tuners) and are super vulnerable to getting ewared (because zero ECCMs). It’s easier to get viable range-fits with gropho MK2s, but I sincerely do hope that these things are going to stay as dead as they have been for the last year(s).

Vagas get a range of ~850+ with a single RE and the nexus, which allows for either fitting 5 ecms, 4 ecms and a tuner, or 4 ecms and a masker. So, against anything but long range grophos, ewar mechs are quite flexible in terms of what they want to bring. Also, maskers are a pretty great passive defense in the right situation.

242 (edited by Syndic 2014-06-25 13:09:17)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

We use remote sensor amps.

900m easy.

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243 (edited by Burial 2014-06-25 13:26:43)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Why are we even talking about range?

Everyone knows EW easily outranges any heavy while not needing even LOS to be effective. Couple that with close to 100% landing chance on both Suppression(100%+) and ECM(90%) and you get unbeatable fleet combination if you bring enough EW.

This has been proven for years. Open your eyes devs.

Gives me chuckles every time Syndic says that you can't balance EW or XYZ composition will be unbeatable. What do you think balancing is all about?

244

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

MQX:  M2S used to run a group of sniper Seth's with follow bots.  They were highly successful for a reason they balanced their fleet comp and didn't let things close the space they created.  It's all about situational circumstances.

Seth's and Grophos can hit 1200 M with the correct ammo.

So we throw max range vagabond with 3 ECMS versus maxed ranged gropho, the gropho still has more range and hit you behind cover AND your thinking it needs more dps?  IMO I think dps is getting the good end of the stick. 

The only people getting boned in fights is mechs.  I will agree that mechs probably need a bump in the sensor strength department.  They have less head slots to work with.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

Why are we even talking about range anyway?

Everyone knows EW easily outranges any heavy while not needing even LOS to be effective. Couple that with close to 100% landing chance on both Suppression(100%+) and ECM(90%) and you get unbeatable fleet combination if you bring enough EW.

This has been proven for years. Open your eyes devs.

Your 100% hit chances are completely ignoring random number generation.

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246 (edited by Burial 2014-06-25 13:33:49)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Über armchair general would beat long range heavies with jamms not suppression? Rite... lol Armchair generals armchair.

Ville wrote:

Your 100% hit chances are completely ignoring random number generation.

Every time EW strength is higher than robot's sensor strength, the EW will be successful. Let's paint it more clearly: Random number can be whatever it wants to be, but if the only option to choose from is True, then the end result will be True.

247 (edited by Syndic 2014-06-25 13:58:53)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

You conveniently and consistently include ECM Tunings in your calculations and present it as an argument that there is something wrong with ECM.

Maximum ECM strength with all maxed skills is 74 hW.

A heavy mech has 85 Sensor strength without any ECCM.

ECM tuning is the problem, not the ECM.

EDIT:

Corrected typos and values, current is:

No ECCM 85/74 - 87%
1 ECCM 160/74 - 46%
2 ECCM 235/74 - 31%

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248 (edited by Burial 2014-06-25 13:47:56)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

You conveniently and consistently include ECM Tunings in your calculations and present it as an argument that there is something wrong with ECM.

Maximum ECM strength with all maxed skills is 73 hW.

A heavy mech has 80 Sensor strength without any ECCM.

ECM tuning is the problem, not the ECM.

Wrong, it's not 73 hW.
Wrong, it's not 80 sensor strength.

lol

// All my last posts haven't included any tuners. Tuners are NOT the problem. The problem is how well ECM and suppression lands with or without ECCM. At first I thought a decent increase to ECCM would help but now I think just reducing EW modules strength is enough. Why? Because double ECCM-s would become de facto standard. Right now they are rubbish sadly.

Btw devs, can we get 29% optimal buff Nexus for weapons too? Just lacking third *** overpowered Nexus and we got golden trio that seperates vets from the newbies. big_smile

249 (edited by Ozy 2014-06-25 14:18:48)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ville: Ya, I remember those fleets and i'm glad that they've fallen out of popularity. That kinda stuff wasn't really fun. That being said, longer range stuff has also been nerfed a bit because your follows now have to be people that are great at multi-tasking or actual follow-pilots.

Overall, we're seeing a lot more self-amping and a lot less logi. I'm not really expecting this to change anytime soon because there aren't enough spare pilots around.

Anyway, I don't think that range-fit heavies deserve any more dps than they currently have, or even any improved ewar defense. This is a specialisation that kind of works and has proper downsides and tangible benfits. I think it's a bit different when you're going with double amps and double eccms because you're basically giving up almost as much as you do for a range-fit, but if you're a bit outnumbered and the enemy relies on ewar (let's not go crazy here--let's say 20 v 30), you're still going to get jammed out very frequently because ecms can be stacked, which translates into superior numbers getting guaranteed jams vs hardened bots. The obvious solution to this would be limiting the amount of ECMs you can apply to a bot to two. I've brought this up a number of times already, but it's never really been discussed. I think it's a potentially good step that could be taken to help re-balance/re-design ecms.

Improving SS for mechs could be interesting as well. The problem is that this could mess light-ewars up pretty well. Thoughts on how to avoid making em useless?

Edit: Before the wrong stuff gets focused on, the point of the above example is not that superior numbers win, but that countering ewar with ECCMs is currently not working well enough. If RSAs were common for all bots, this wouldn't be an issue, really, because those two additional headslots make all the difference--but RSAs aren't really common anymore.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I've corrected my post, 74 hW and 85 SS.

Current on Live server:
Heavy
No ECCM 85/74 - 87%
1 ECCM 160/74 - 46%
2 ECCM 235/74 - 31%

Current on Test server:

Heavy
No ECCM 102/74 - 72%
1 ECCM 192/74 - 38%
2 ECCM 282/74 - 26%

Tuners are the problem because they are stackable and they give 35% EW Strength increase without taking anything away (10% accumulator usage is a joke).

Why do Heavy mechs have 85 Sensor Strength while everything else in-game is 100+?

They are meant to be countered by EWar by design.

Let's look at a Mech.

Current on Live server:

No ECCM 120/74 - 61%
1 ECCM 195/74 - 37%
2 ECCM 270/74 - 27%

Current on Test server:

No ECCM 144/74 - 51%
1 ECCM 234/74 - 31%
2 ECCM 324/74 - 22%

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