201 (edited by Norrdec 2014-06-24 16:47:54)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I have never seen, even a lolfit, ewar mech with injectors. So is your math sound? Yes. Is that something that will happen in real world? Nope.
Also like Tung mention - this is not a solo arena game.
Let's make a tournament between both sides of the argument, to see who is right and have devs post the videos to prove all the forum warriors how it works in real life.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

All EW mechs I've scanned from your side have injector.

203

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

lol @ the claims of injectors being not used on ewars. also, feel free to repeat that test as per your scenario, tund. I sure hope you can get the artemis to lock faster than 2.5 secs tongue

204 (edited by Tund Bungler 2014-06-24 17:43:08)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

And now you guys resort to blatant lies while ignoring the pertinent parts. This is why we don't get any discussion done.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

yeah, ignoring the presence of energy transfer bots in your fleets.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:

yeah, ignoring the presence of energy transfer bots in your fleets.


You clearly have no idea what happens when dips focuses a ewar bot; mostly because you do not undock or play. Why do you post here again?

207

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Tund Bungler wrote:

And now you guys resort to blatant lies while ignoring the pertinent parts. This is why we don't get any discussion done.

You know what prevents discussions?

CIR: "hey, that kain got some shots off, ewar is totally fine"
CIR: "hey, that kain managed to kill that vagabond after its injector charges ran out, it's totally doing decent damage!"

Also, your initial scenario with the arti was completely ridiculous, and when you get called out on it you deflect to the above.

P.S. injectors are perfectly valid for ewar mechs tongue

208 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-06-24 18:28:26)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Injector or no injector how is this related to ewar? What was it? 14 seconds for vagabond to explode while focusing all ecm on the kain?

And regarding post count, it's 5 or less people complaining about ewar for the last 6 months coming here with bogus 1v1 scenarios over and over. Our 'side' refutes them over and over. Yet based on all the threads and posts Devs just ASSUME there is an issue because 'people have been complaining.'

Fit a *** neut on that kain for your *** 1v1 sample.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ozy wrote:
Tund Bungler wrote:

And now you guys resort to blatant lies while ignoring the pertinent parts. This is why we don't get any discussion done.

You know what prevents discussions?

CIR: "hey, that kain got some shots off, ewar is totally fine"
CIR: "hey, that kain managed to kill that vagabond after its injector charges ran out, it's totally doing decent damage!"

Also, your initial scenario with the arti was completely ridiculous, and when you get called out on it you deflect to the above.

P.S. injectors are perfectly valid for ewar mechs tongue

The injector has zero part in the argument. Yes, you CAN get below 2.5 locking time on a mech, you STILL don't balance 1v1. Did I miss anything?

210 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-06-24 18:52:33)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

STC Complainer 2of5 wrote:

CIR: "hey, that kain got some shots off, ewar is totally fine" THE 5 have been arguing that ECM permanently "stun-locks' it's target, now it's 'getting' shots off, now it's killing the Vagabond
CIR: "hey, that kain managed to kill that vagabond after its injector charges ran out, it's totally doing decent damage!" THE 5 have been arguing that ewar is the problem but now it's INJECTORS, now it's that there is not enough DPS

Devs, before you go and FVCK UP a 4 year old mechanic I think you need a better sample size in population and testing. It's obvious to me again, that THE 5 just want their full tuner DPS fit and anything else, like replacing a gun with a neut or using another ECCM is just too much gimp on their precious PVE-style DPS set-ups. They are not PvPers. They do not know how to change tactics to counter different fits. They just sit their like fish out of water continuing to flop their useless tales.

I know 77CIR are not the most friendly, popular bunch. But they know PvP mechanics and balance better than anyone else in this game. And you devs would be FOOLS to ignore their advice. And if you think it's just two side each spewing propaganda then you should at least give benefit of the doubt to long standing mechanics.

You have much, much more important things to work on. How about getting started on those islands? New players coming to the game need room to grow. Gimping ewar ain't gonna help them.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I think ewar would be fine as long as eccm has the same amount of skills as ecm has. Also get remote eccm andactive eccm. Ewar is fine, just not the counter mechanics. Sensor supressors can hurt a bot but they have the ability to use sensor amps, remote amps and skills to improve lock range and speed. Just like there are two sides to a coin their should be two sides to a mechanic.

212 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-06-24 19:30:23)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Remote ECCM

I think I've seen that thrown about once or twice, and it may be a interesting addition as it requires choices, coordination and teamwork to be effective.  Unfortunately this ewar "balance" crusade is not about balance, its about taking ewar off the field and never having to worry about it again. Remote ECCM would only further gimp THE 5 who don't know how choices, coordination and teamwork come together in balance.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I'm very much against adding any skills to the game for ewar. It just makes noobs that much worse off.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Tund Bungler wrote:

I'm very much against adding any skills to the game for ewar. It just makes noobs that much worse off.


It all depends what skills are being added. If that's the case just get rid of the skills that increase targeting range and lock time. I'm sure that won't change how often sensor suppressors are used. I'd love to be able to reroll that ep into sensor suppression...

215 (edited by Jita 2014-06-24 19:57:12)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Rage Rex wrote:

Remote ECCM

I think I've seen that thrown about once or twice, and it may be a interesting addition as it requires choices, coordination and teamwork to be effective.  Unfortunately this ewar "balance" crusade is not about balance, its about taking ewar off the field and never having to worry about it again. Remote ECCM would only further gimp THE 5 who don't know how choices, coordination and teamwork come together in balance.

Would much prefer remote ECCM tbh.

Also quit eating so much sausage and making it about other people. Pretty much everyone hates these changes and wants something different. It's Alf that's a mouth breathing thundercunt.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Adding any skills at this point for existing mechanics is silly. Im sitting on 100k ep on all 7 characters so I can take any new skill instantly, but what about new players? Why are the devs making it harder for them to catchup?

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Jita wrote:
Rage Rex wrote:

Remote ECCM

I think I've seen that thrown about once or twice, and it may be a interesting addition as it requires choices, coordination and teamwork to be effective.  Unfortunately this ewar "balance" crusade is not about balance, its about taking ewar off the field and never having to worry about it again. Remote ECCM would only further gimp THE 5 who don't know how choices, coordination and teamwork come together in balance.

Would much prefer remote ECCM tbh.

Also quit eating so much sausage and making it about other people. Pretty much everyone hates these changes and wants something different. It's Alf that's a mouth breathing thundercunt.


Goddamn I missed the real Jita. Welcome back brosef.

218 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-06-24 21:52:58)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Jita wrote:

Also quit eating so much sausage and making it about other people.

"Making it about other people" comes from my observation over the years watching people come to forums and spam tears until some Dev throws up his hands and say "ok, we'll change, it." That is essentially what is happening with ewar. The process is as relevant as the mechanics themselves.

The irony in your comment here is that this game does not have NPC AOE loot drops because YOU followed that model to the T. Whether Devs would have made that change or some other in response to Beacons is another issue. Nevertheless, your tears greased the knee to jerk.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

While at first we liked the idea of remote ECCM, recieving ECCM from outer sources further promotes tuner fittings because you can free up those slots. Under the current mechanics it has to be a continous effect, we could limit the number of effects affecting you, but the final boost should worth the slots sacrificed by others. Also we don't find much of teamwork in lock a given friendly activate modul and thats all.
(the idea is not thrown away tho.)

But as we said we are open for ideas, and discussion (we could have just patched it already weeks ago).
We also would like to avoid using of banhammer because of name callings and such post like "don't listen to them, listen to us, we know it better". The topic is full with this, and it is frustrating.

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

220

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

@Alf Have you considered the entropy thing/found a feasible way to implement it yet? I think transitioning to pseudo-random would help a ton with some of the frustration that ECMs can cause. That being said, I do think that the risk-reward equation of ECCMs kinda needs to be re-evaluated too, it's just tricky to find the right tool/balance there.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

The biggest reason there is no glaring solution is that ewar is actually balanced really well right now.

I suggest rebalancing the cargo holds of all hauler bots to someone more reasonable.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ecm is balanced, but not eccm.

To kill a bot you use damage, to stop damage you use a tank of some sort or you use ewar to negate/slow damage, to stop ewar you bring more ewar, to... Wait... More ewar?

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Gwyndor wrote:

Ecm is balanced, but not eccm.

To kill a bot you use damage, to stop damage you use a tank of some sort or you use ewar to negate/slow damage, to stop ewar you bring more ewar, to... Wait... More ewar?

To stop ewar you bring sensor amps and eccm.

224 (edited by Burial 2014-06-25 01:51:09)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

While at first we liked the idea of remote ECCM, recieving ECCM from outer sources further promotes tuner fittings because you can free up those slots. Under the current mechanics it has to be a continous effect, we could limit the number of effects affecting you, but the final boost should worth the slots sacrificed by others. Also we don't find much of teamwork in lock a given friendly activate modul and thats all.
(the idea is not thrown away tho.)

But as we said we are open for ideas, and discussion (we could have just patched it already weeks ago).
We also would like to avoid using of banhammer because of name callings and such post like "don't listen to them, listen to us, we know it better". The topic is full with this, and it is frustrating.

- Nerf EW Nexus to 15%
- Reduce suppressor base EW strength to same as ECM
- ECM and Suppressor base strength 20-25

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Tund Bungler wrote:
Gwyndor wrote:

Ecm is balanced, but not eccm.

To kill a bot you use damage, to stop damage you use a tank of some sort or you use ewar to negate/slow damage, to stop ewar you bring more ewar, to... Wait... More ewar?

To stop ewar you bring sensor amps and eccm.

That's not the counter that the "active pvpers" use. It's typically more chameleons and vagabonds.