176 (edited by Ozy 2014-06-16 18:53:28)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Stranger Danger wrote:

The problem with ewar is one group of people uses them well, while other groups cant grasp it beyond the assumption that its OP and its not their fault for improperly using them.

Always good for an amusing post, Stranger. It's a bit megalomaniac and ridiculous to assume that all these posts are due to CIR using ewar.

P.S. Why has nothing new been implemented yet sad

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ozy wrote:
Stranger Danger wrote:

The problem with ewar is one group of people uses them well, while other groups cant grasp it beyond the assumption that its OP and its not their fault for improperly using them.

Always good for an amusing post, Stranger. It's a bit megalomaniac and ridiculous to assume that all these posts are due to CIR using ewar.

P.S. Why has nothing new been implemented yet sad


Because nothing is broken

178

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Because some people used the test server?

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179

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ville wrote:

Because some people used the test server?

huh? I meant on the test server. it's hard to say anything else here until we see new stuff implemented to actually test.

180

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

L10 skills, 2ECCMs  the ecm pilot is useless.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ville wrote:

L10 skills, 2ECCMs  the ecm pilot is useless.

how much under fleet conditions with 50% interference dropping sensor strength down?

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:
Ville wrote:

L10 skills, 2ECCMs  the ecm pilot is useless.

how much under fleet conditions with 50% interference dropping sensor strength down?

So in other words it's ok that ECM is useless because hey, when there is interference to boot, you may get some jams.

You is crazy

183 (edited by Syndic 2014-06-16 23:11:19)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Interference doesn't factor into it.

2 ECCM's with what's on the test server, an EWar pilot in an EWar bot/mech is useless and a liability.

That's not balancing that's murdering an entire playstyle based on repetitive forum crusading from the same 5-10 dudes. 5-10 dudes who don't even play the game anymore.

Side effect being that all the playstyles the EWar used to counter suddenly become literally unstoppable.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:
Ville wrote:

L10 skills, 2ECCMs  the ecm pilot is useless.

how much under fleet conditions with 50% interference dropping sensor strength down?

Now that we have your expertise, how about under conditions of never undocking?

185 (edited by Gremrod 2014-06-17 15:43:03)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:
Gremrod wrote:
Burial wrote:

Repeating your view doesn't make it any more true. The problem is ECCM. It NEEDS a giant boost.

Some posts you say the above.


Burial wrote:

ECM is NOT the only problem.

And in other posts you say the above.



You can't even make up your mind.

huh? his posts are not contradicting. he says that ECM is not the only problem, and ECCM beeing to weak is a problem.

Don't mind me.... Just not reading close enough. ECM and ECCM just seem to look the same to be at times. smile

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

The extension change (extension only affect the eccm module) should be on the test server soon.
We feel that the extension is a good option to boost the defensive capablities against EW.
While stacking a lot of ECCM modules under the current live settings provides you significant defense against EW, you have to sacrifice so much, that you aren't worth of EWing anyway because you don't represent the threat you could be. Not in damage nor in range.

Tunings: The whole tuning stacking is under review, as we see its not unique to the ECM tunings only. Changing only the ECM tuning isn't the solution as we see.

Supression: The combination with ECM makes this module shine and ruins the day of people.
The aim of the EW is to MITIGATE incoming damage from specific targets/sources, but not blocking it.
We are thinking about changeing the mechanics of the supression, making the direct los weapons' accuracy worse, and increasing the cycletime of missile launchers or giving them missile guidance fail chance.
(this would involve changing bonuses of zenith but we ironing out the details)

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

187

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

The extension change (extension only affect the eccm module) should be on the test server soon.
We feel that the extension is a good option to boost the defensive capablities against EW.
While stacking a lot of ECCM modules under the current live settings provides you significant defense against EW, you have to sacrifice so much, that you aren't worth of EWing anyway because you don't represent the threat you could be. Not in damage nor in range.

Tunings: The whole tuning stacking is under review, as we see its not unique to the ECM tunings only. Changing only the ECM tuning isn't the solution as we see.

Supression: The combination with ECM makes this module shine and ruins the day of people.
The aim of the EW is to MITIGATE incoming damage from specific targets/sources, but not blocking it.
We are thinking about changeing the mechanics of the supression, making the direct los weapons' accuracy worse, and increasing the cycletime of missile launchers or giving them missile guidance fail chance.
(this would involve changing bonuses of zenith but we ironing out the details)


If mitigating damage is truly what you want ...

We should make electronic warfare different. Make it fun. Make it actually make sense instead of carbon copy eve.
What I would suggest is making ewar work on modules and not the mech / bot itself.
EW would be replaced by electromagnetic pulse and would cause the temporary failure of your modules, the greater the strength the greater chance of affecting a module. Each module has an ewar hardening strength and rather than losing lock your losing the ability to use some or all of your modules.
Sensor suppressing would be replaced by electromagnetic interference that would reduce the effectiveness of modules across the board. Reps would repair less, guns would shoot shorter distances for less damage etc.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

188

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

The extension change (extension only affect the eccm module) should be on the test server soon.
We feel that the extension is a good option to boost the defensive capablities against EW.
While stacking a lot of ECCM modules under the current live settings provides you significant defense against EW, you have to sacrifice so much, that you aren't worth of EWing anyway because you don't represent the threat you could be. Not in damage nor in range.

Tunings: The whole tuning stacking is under review, as we see its not unique to the ECM tunings only. Changing only the ECM tuning isn't the solution as we see.

Supression: The combination with ECM makes this module shine and ruins the day of people.
The aim of the EW is to MITIGATE incoming damage from specific targets/sources, but not blocking it.
We are thinking about changeing the mechanics of the supression, making the direct los weapons' accuracy worse, and increasing the cycletime of missile launchers or giving them missile guidance fail chance.
(this would involve changing bonuses of zenith but we ironing out the details)

These ideas are wasting development time.  You should be balancing power projection.  Not 4 year old mechanics, that work fine. 

Tell me this Alf, have you even thought about how this effects gamma turrets?

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

The extension change (extension only affect the eccm module) should be on the test server soon.
We feel that the extension is a good option to boost the defensive capablities against EW.
While stacking a lot of ECCM modules under the current live settings provides you significant defense against EW, you have to sacrifice so much, that you aren't worth of EWing anyway because you don't represent the threat you could be. Not in damage nor in range.

Tunings: The whole tuning stacking is under review, as we see its not unique to the ECM tunings only. Changing only the ECM tuning isn't the solution as we see.

Supression: The combination with ECM makes this module shine and ruins the day of people.
The aim of the EW is to MITIGATE incoming damage from specific targets/sources, but not blocking it.
We are thinking about changeing the mechanics of the supression, making the direct los weapons' accuracy worse, and increasing the cycletime of missile launchers or giving them missile guidance fail chance.
(this would involve changing bonuses of zenith but we ironing out the details)

2/5 or 2/6 headslots isn't a too great "sacrifice" considering in exchange you make the life of enemy EWar pilots a nightmare. It's a trade-off, if it wasn't a trade-off then we'd all roll around in Heavies. Is that what you want ultimately, everyone rolling around in Heavies? I slap 2 ECCM's on my heavy all the time and I don't care about enemy EWar.

EWar doesn't block damage, it mitigates either enemy EWar or enemy damage - and never 200% unless there's a huge numerical disparity.

You hit the nail on the head with supression though - the teamwork of 2+ people coordinating their efforts ruins the day of some people.

However, so does 2+ people shooting 1 person. If 5 people shoot you and insta-kill you, doesn't that ruin your day? There's no chance to fight back, you're insta-killed. Or neuting - if 2 Ictus volley you, you have no accumulator and can't fight back. Doesn't that ruin your day too?

But go ahead and do your change, if you haven't comprehended what we're saying the past 6-7 pages you never will. You've been gone for 2 years Alf. Keep that in mind when you come in here and tell us "how stuff works".

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190

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

You know what's better Alf, if you keep the extensions for eccm module, anyone rocking a Seth mk2 with two eccm will be immune to ewar and with 1 eccm, anyone under 1 million ep won't be successful in ewar.

Do actually know what ewar does in fleet fights?  You don't roll 4 ecms on 1 target.  You roll 1 ecm on 4 targets.  And usually if your. Getting  suppressed or ecmed, you just back up and break the lock.

Your trying to fix something that's not broken.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ville wrote:
DEV Alf wrote:

The extension change (extension only affect the eccm module) should be on the test server soon.
We feel that the extension is a good option to boost the defensive capablities against EW.
While stacking a lot of ECCM modules under the current live settings provides you significant defense against EW, you have to sacrifice so much, that you aren't worth of EWing anyway because you don't represent the threat you could be. Not in damage nor in range.

Tunings: The whole tuning stacking is under review, as we see its not unique to the ECM tunings only. Changing only the ECM tuning isn't the solution as we see.

Supression: The combination with ECM makes this module shine and ruins the day of people.
The aim of the EW is to MITIGATE incoming damage from specific targets/sources, but not blocking it.
We are thinking about changeing the mechanics of the supression, making the direct los weapons' accuracy worse, and increasing the cycletime of missile launchers or giving them missile guidance fail chance.
(this would involve changing bonuses of zenith but we ironing out the details)

These ideas are wasting development time.  You should be balancing power projection.  Not 4 year old mechanics, that work fine. 

Tell me this Alf, have you even thought about how this effects gamma turrets?

+1

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

192 (edited by Burial 2014-06-24 15:03:56)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

How exactly is EW mech useless if it still jamms through 2-3 ECCM and forces the heavy to drop 30-50% damage/range?? What stops anyone from countering it with full tuner heavies?? This is a complete garbage coming from your mouths.

EW is used to shut EVERYONE down. It should be geared towards shutting down composition XYZ critical bots. Spamming EW should NOT be automatic Win without casualties. Make game more interesting ffs!

Devs, this change is still hardly any help. I really wish you knew how to balance your game.

//

DEV Alf wrote:

The extension change (extension only affect the eccm module) should be on the test server soon.

Gets better and better. How exactly few % difference in jamming chance is going to change anything?

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

How exactly is EW mech useless if it still jamms through 2-3 ECCM and forces the heavy to drop 30-50% damage/range?? What stops anyone from countering it with full tuner heavies?? This is a complete garbage coming from your mouths.

EW is used to shut EVERYONE down. It should be geared towards shutting down composition XYZ critical bots. Spamming EW should NOT be automatic Win without casualties. Make game more interesting ffs!

Devs, this change is still hardly any help. I really wish you knew how to balance your game.


The only reason Ewar shuts everyone down currently is because all of your members are out riding bikes and we outnumber you 2:1-3:1 every fight. Thats hardly a game balance problem. As we've demonstrated time and time again, even a Vagabond running 4 ECMs with a 100% jam chance on a Artemis WILL NOT shut the Artemis down 100%, and the Artemis can break through the Vagas shield and kill him. I still don't get how you guys think this situation is imbalanced in favor of the Vaga.

194 (edited by Burial 2014-06-24 15:34:24)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I have said times and times again that the problem is not Vagabond, but the formula how hit chance is calculated in general. It's even worse on Zenith because of higher base EW strength.

This puny ECCM 'buff' is hardly noticable and definitely won't shift the meta anywhere. GG.

195

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Tund Bungler wrote:

The only reason Ewar shuts everyone down currently is because all of your members are out riding bikes and we outnumber you 2:1-3:1 every fight. Thats hardly a game balance problem. As we've demonstrated time and time again, even a Vagabond running 4 ECMs with a 100% jam chance on a Artemis WILL NOT shut the Artemis down 100%, and the Artemis can break through the Vagas shield and kill him. I still don't get how you guys think this situation is imbalanced in favor of the Vaga.

http://pastebin.com/ZpbZ38cu (Vaga w/ 3 ECMs vs a Kain MK2 w/ 2 amps and 2 eccms.)

That Kain took almost 5 minutes to take that Vaga out because that's how long its injector charges lasted. But sure ... take out those two ECCMs, apply all 4 ECMs to an arti ... and then see how long it takes that arti to kill the vaga. My guess: about a minute after the vaga's dry.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ozy wrote:
Tund Bungler wrote:

The only reason Ewar shuts everyone down currently is because all of your members are out riding bikes and we outnumber you 2:1-3:1 every fight. Thats hardly a game balance problem. As we've demonstrated time and time again, even a Vagabond running 4 ECMs with a 100% jam chance on a Artemis WILL NOT shut the Artemis down 100%, and the Artemis can break through the Vagas shield and kill him. I still don't get how you guys think this situation is imbalanced in favor of the Vaga.

http://pastebin.com/ZpbZ38cu (Vaga w/ 3 ECMs vs a Kain MK2 w/ 2 amps and 2 eccms.)

That Kain took almost 5 minutes to take that Vaga out because that's how long its injector charges lasted. But sure ... take out those two ECCMs, apply all 4 ECMs to an arti ... and then see how long it takes that arti to kill the vaga. My guess: about a minute after the vaga's dry.

Fit a neut on your kain

Or nerf shields or injectors.

Not an ewar issue

197 (edited by Nooodlzs 2014-06-24 16:23:15)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ozy wrote:

http://pastebin.com/ZpbZ38cu (Vaga w/ 3 ECMs vs a Kain MK2 w/ 2 amps and 2 eccms.)

That Kain took almost 5 minutes to take that Vaga out because that's how long its injector charges lasted. But sure ... take out those two ECCMs, apply all 4 ECMs to an arti ... and then see how long it takes that arti to kill the vaga. My guess: about a minute after the vaga's dry.


So what you are showing is that it took 14 seconds to kill a vaga and 4.5 minutes to kill an artificially boosted shield.

[19:40:53] mqx > 0.00 damage > Ozy
[19:40:53] mqx > 111.13 damage > Ozy
[19:41:00] mqx > 179.41 damage > Ozy
[19:41:00] mqx > 180.77 damage > Ozy
[19:41:00] mqx > 190.16 damage > Ozy
[19:41:00] mqx > 175.33 damage > Ozy
[19:41:06] Target missed
[19:41:06] mqx > 191.14 damage > Ozy
[19:41:07] mqx > 189.49 damage > Ozy
[19:41:07] mqx > 198.34 damage > Ozy
[19:41:07] mqx > Destroyed > Ozy





How many rechargers did you have fitted to get that extremely biased result?

198 (edited by Ozy 2014-06-24 16:33:19)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Nooodlzs wrote:

How many rechargers did you have fitted to get that extremely biased result?

0. It was a standard vaga fit: inj, shield, lwf ... and an evasive, i think. the kain kept getting jammed semi-regularly and just couldn't put down enough DPS to get through the shield (both pilots were maxed) because of the double amps + double eccms.

Rage Rex wrote:

Fit a neut on your kain

Or nerf shields or injectors.

Not an ewar issue

That test was done to debunk the kind of BS Tund wrote above and to see how well a dedicated anti-ewar mech setup could actually resist getting jammed and do damage.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ozy wrote:
Tund Bungler wrote:

The only reason Ewar shuts everyone down currently is because all of your members are out riding bikes and we outnumber you 2:1-3:1 every fight. Thats hardly a game balance problem. As we've demonstrated time and time again, even a Vagabond running 4 ECMs with a 100% jam chance on a Artemis WILL NOT shut the Artemis down 100%, and the Artemis can break through the Vagas shield and kill him. I still don't get how you guys think this situation is imbalanced in favor of the Vaga.

http://pastebin.com/ZpbZ38cu (Vaga w/ 3 ECMs vs a Kain MK2 w/ 2 amps and 2 eccms.)

That Kain took almost 5 minutes to take that Vaga out because that's how long its injector charges lasted. But sure ... take out those two ECCMs, apply all 4 ECMs to an arti ... and then see how long it takes that arti to kill the vaga. My guess: about a minute after the vaga's dry.


We did this, repeatedly. Fits exist ingame to overcome the odds. Its a big part of why we do so well in engagements, our fits are more tested and thought out.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ozy wrote:
Nooodlzs wrote:

How many rechargers did you have fitted to get that extremely biased result?

0. It was a standard vaga fit: inj, shield, lwf ... and an evasive, i think. the kain kept getting jammed semi-regularly and just couldn't put down enough DPS to get through the shield (both pilots were maxed) because of the double amps + double eccms.

Rage Rex wrote:

Fit a neut on your kain

Or nerf shields or injectors.

Not an ewar issue

That test was done to debunk the kind of BS Tund wrote above and to see how well a dedicated anti-ewar mech setup could actually resist getting jammed and do damage.


So you just helped me prove that plenty of DPS DOES in fact get through. The injector being on there is pointless because 1: the game is balanced for 1v1 and 2: no one actually fits those things on ewar mechs.

But like I said you just showed enough  DPS CAN get through even when the Vagas sole goal is to 'shut down' 1 single player; it just can't do it. Why are we nerfing ewar again?