• M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Topic: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Pretty simple really, remove the NPC buy orders for kernels and allow players dictate the market as opposed to having artificial set prices.

I appreciate that players need an income however the NPC buy orders are heavily taken advantage off and the ease at which nic can be earned by players simply farming lvl 1 missions spots is game breaking e.g. you get players earning noc faster than their character can develop resulting in players buying and jumping into expensive mechs far beyond their skills can manage. Slow down the rate of easy nic will help manage this learning curve.

Also new players have to contend with players possessing advanced mechs and skills because the lvl 1 spots are more lucrative. Example of this are those who boast earnings based on farming mission spots below their actual "level".

Removing NPC buy orders will encourage older players to progress to higher tier missions and eventually to beta island missions if they want to keep progressing. With the majority of ore on alpha isands and easy nic fonts also on alpha islands why go beta?

Another benefit of removing NPC kernel buy orders means a more realistic free market will evolve and not shackled by this money font. Kernel price may plummet or it may drop but that will be decided by the player base which is far more engaging than some faceless npc with unlimited pockets.

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

I can see where you're coming from and there is a flaw in the NIC balance currently.

The issue is Kernels would then go the same way decoders gave gone. Large corporations won't well them as they need them to keep going and smaller groups won't be able to get them without having to sell them for a hugely inflated price. So the low end kernels would fall in price and high end kernels would be fought over.

I can see how any NPC orders are removing the freeness of the market but AC can't afford to recruit an economist to keep an eye on things and make minor changes as they're needed.

Right now everything needs minor tweaks and it's not happening. sad

The Game
  • BODS1
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

I personally like the idea, in the sense that kernels are one hell of a NIC faucet, and you can make many many millions of NIC in a very short time frame farming them. However if you take them out that leaves only 1 source of NIC. Missions, and we "all" HATE missions.

So I would actually suggest radically lowering the value of kernels.

Oldest player still in the game. Perpetuum for life.
Original Founder of M2S, may it rest in peace. sad
"Hungarian Math" is defined by the dictionary as "Just like normal math, but where each equation ends by dividing the sum by Potato."
-Shoutout to "Stranger Danger" for the "potato" comment.
  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Then how do you expect a combat char to make NIC if the missions suck?

5 Reply by Rodger Dodger (edited by Rodger Dodger 2010-12-24 13:28:35)

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Define combat char? If you mean a pvper then so far as Im aware players dont drop kernels, if you mean pve then mission hand ins and selling loot on the market, actually I expect a combat character to make nic the exact same way they make it now.

The only difference being the kernel price is set by players.

I think a good description of kernels is it is their "bounty" the reward a game tacks onto completiong a certain task, in this case killing an npc. But it is a nic faucet whose valve has been set to maximum, the npc buy orders are continuously pumping more and more nic into the economy.

When I think about it there is a second factor thats is contributing to this and that is the very fast respawn rate of npcs, especially at mission spots, which means an unlimited and rapid income of kernels and thus nic.

Fast respawn rate with low end npc mechs (say lvl 1 mission npcs) being insta locked, insta popped, insta respawn and insta sell kernel for gauranteed price thats an insta problem right there.

Taking into what others have replied with thus far I think a way forward would be to:

-Remove npc kernel buy orders.
-Kernels only drop from mission npcs if the player has the mission to kill them
-The mission hand in reward includes an additional bonus for returned kernels
-Players whose standings give access to lvl 2 missions do not benefit from lvl 1 kernel bonus rewards, likewise lvl 3 players cannot get lvl 2 kernel bonus.

This additional reward can be shown as a seperate payment such as "In addition to killing 7 serant filche deliver their robots kernels and youll get an extra 15k nic" which are taken out of the cargo hold when the mission is handed in. They must be in the robot hold for this to trigger allowing players can stockpile kernels in the storage hanger for use or sale on the market without accidentally handing them over on mission completion.

Kernels will still drop as per usual from random non mission npcs but their spawn times are not as frequent or as predictable as mission npcs. This enable advanced players to farm low end kernels still.

By doing this the income for players who choose to pve is still there but they are not in unfair competition with advanced players. It will still provide an nic income into the economoy but a more controlled one and encourages players to start spreading out across the world map instead of sitting on the same mission spawn spot.

It can also make beta islands more attractive by having mission on beta island stations trigger kernel drops that can only be obtained from picking up and running missions on beta islands.

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

You will still be able to make NIC from combat, you'll just have to start farming higher level spawns for better kernals and items.

When the low level kernals plummet in price because theyre so damn easy to get and you dont need that many of them to get all the research, the higher level kernals will really start to show their worth.

Its not just about the NIC faucets that will get players money.  You will get money from the industrials who need the kernals and have the NIC to buy it.  The missions are still a very good NIC faucet, but not so much that we'll just see tons of inflation because everyone is rich.

TBH, the fact that any noob can be a multimillionaire in a day or less seems really REALLY bad.  Sure, being able to replace gear quickly from the market is nice, but if theres too much NIC floating around it will just f*ck with the market way too much.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki
  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

This needs a more precise look than just saying "Remove them".

Where is NIC introduced into the game, and who benefits most?
NPC Infinite Buy Orders - Combat
Assignments - All
Insurance (to some extent) - All/Combat

Where is NIC removed from the game, and who does this affect most?
Insurance - All/Combat
Extension Installations - All
Prototyping - Industry
REing - Industry
Repairing - Industry/Combat
Intrusion Event Applications - Corp CEOs

Industry suffers the largest NIC loss, and gains most of their NIC from player sales.
Combat has the greatest chance to introduce more currency into PO, which they would spend on purchases from Industry (for the most part) and other Combats (who loot to sell).

Solution ideas:
More bot destructions - Improve AI to make PvE a little tougher and less exploitable. AI should get equivalent locking/targeting upgrades as what players are capable of. Ways of encouraging PvP should be more encouraged.
Reduce NPC buy orders to 1/8 what they are now.
Reduce PvP gear drop % to 30% and have players drop NIC, not from their personal balance, but created.
Bounties on Players, created/paid via NPC, available to opposing corps. At the time of accepting, a general area of where the target can be found is given. Assassination Assignments. This would also encourage players to enter into Corps.
Remove the possibility of creating Alts. 1 Char per account.

Actually, I'm adding the bounty thing to it's own thread. I think this would be fun.

Lokked

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

I'd hate to see any system implemented that takes away a reason to travel to a beta island. Maybe taking away the Alpha orders, but not the Beta ones.  Bounty missions suck balls as it is.

  • QD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Removing them imo would do more harm than good at the games current economic stage, but I agree that lowering there infinite buy order price is essential to keep the market from being flooded with NIC

  • They need to work out the average cost for a player to kill a mob AT his/her robot type using the correct ammo
    Then work out how many mobs to complete an average mission at that lvl
    Then multiply the cost by the amount of mobs and you get your average cost per mission
    Then make the Kernal Infinite value so when you sell those average number of Kernal kills you get around 50% more than your cost to keep the player stabilized.

Currently when farming mobs with the same robot type I am getting around 200-250% profit from the kernal sales (player buy orders), so imo the infinite price needs to be dropped by 50%, this should create a good base for the player market to open up a wider variety of buy orders and also allow a PVE combat player to sustain themselves if they sell at infinite value

  • QD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

What about making the infinite buy orders a bit more dynamic?

Every hour take the total numbers of kernels sold of each type at each outpost/terminal.

Kernel price = base price * ( 1 - ( # of kernels of this type sold at this place / # of kernels of this type sold on this island ) )

As a result the terminal nearest to the best spot will likely have the worst NPC prices while the out of the way terminals will have the best prices.

Thus it will create a better hauler environment where haulers can do stuff besides taxi between the major alpha terminals, NPC farmers will spread out and move around to get the best prices and kernel prices will, on average, be reduced by 1/4 or so ( 4 outposts per island. )

Not sure if it will fix the issue in it's entirety but I think it will be an improvement and fitting with the game.

*Insert really awesome sig here*
  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

I suggested a while ago that the mission items that drop from rats should have an npc buy order, not the kernel.

12 Reply by Rodger Dodger (edited by Rodger Dodger 2010-12-25 22:45:32)

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Another reason to either get rid or significantly reduce NPC buy orders for kernels: rmt nic sellers (commonly known as gold selelrs).

With more and more money entering the system through this uncontrolled faucet prices will spiral upwards since the value of nic will lower. With high costs applied to everything new players and players who don't want to spend several hours farming npc spawn spots will be the target customer base for gold sellers. Not to mention the game is basically handing easy to obtain nic to the gold sellers to perpetuate their trade in relative ease.

This is a long term problem. Short term its all nice being millionairres but eventually, and this is evident in other MMOs where the currency is devalued due to the economy being flooded with currency, your millions will count for nothing and the market will become stagnant.

Jita makes a valid point as well, although the loot an npc drops in Alpha is largely ignored for two reasons first the cargo size so it is inefficient to carry it all back second the high costs associated to repairing damaged modules make reselling them unattractive.

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

And another point that confuses me... there is the apparent disdain towards missions as apparent by posts in this topic yet what are missions but going out and killing npcs... and what is farming kernels but going out and killing npcs.

So where is the difference? Why the worry that removing buy order for kernels will equal great difficulty in combat characters making nic?

Its also best to try to keep any solution as simple as possible then build on that rather than go for complex solutions that can cause any number of new problems.

  • QD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

I'm all for them removing the kernal price but if they do they need to up the mission rewards significantly so combat characters PVE can sustain themselves with the missions.

15 Reply by Weapon X (edited by Weapon X 2010-12-26 06:56:59)

  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Still waiting for missions revamp.

Then the kernals can be looked at. Atm they're the only thing worth farming. Mods too heavy/cost too much to repair and mission rewards arent worth the time to pickup and hand in.

I agree making the higher end kernals more valuable. But dont punish solo players either.

  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Combat characters rely on kernels to make a profit, so they need to stay how they are.

  • N-A
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

*cough* m2s *cough* so after you made bilions of NIC by doing this, you decide you made enough so other players cant catch you up? Good call! lol

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Blaster wrote:

*cough* m2s *cough* so after you made bilions of NIC by doing this, you decide you made enough so other players cant catch you up? Good call! lol

We wish.  We did make some millions on the first day when they had beta kernal orders pumped up like 3x of alpha but that wasn't all that much in comparison to what most people have now.


Combat characters rely on kernels to make a profit, so they need to stay how they are.

Which is why they need to be nerfed.  Its way too *** easy to make money farming low level spawns.  We needs more incentive to kill high rank spawns to get players off of noob areas clogging them up.

You can still make considerable amounts of money elsewhere and much more with a mech on beta, but for the safety and NIC/hour that rank 1 spawns give its the best place to farm right now.

In beta there were NPC buy orders for many more items, so looting/hauling at rank 3 spawns was easily more profitable if you had a sequer.  Now that those orders are gone and players dont need tons of modules that avenue of profit is gone as well.  I dont see the players complaining about this nerf in profitability.  I could easily make 4-5m NIC in an hour with those spawns and an alt hauler.

You wont be poor as a combat character if they make low level kernals cheaper, or just remove them and let the players decide their price, you'll just have to find better places to make money.  More risk SHOULD equal more reward.  That is simply not the case right now.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

19 Reply by Styx (edited by Styx 2010-12-26 16:36:28)

  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Kernel buy orders are not the problem. The NIC disparity between the different levels are what is. Some quick math to back up my statement.

* Buy orders are at Beta prices.
* Kernels per hour are the theoretical maximum. Assuming you can instantly kill each NPC as it spawns.
* Each person represents a Heavy Mech with good skills and equipment.

5x 1st Star Assault Spawn on Alpha

12,600 * 300 = 3,780,000

Takes 1 person to farm. Can be done in complete safety.

3x 5th Star Mech & 3x 5th Star Heavymech on Beta

33,000 * 180 = 5,940,000
26,400 * 180 = 4,752,000

Total = 10,692,000

Takes at least 8 people. Can only be done on Beta in PvP.

20 Reply by Rodger Dodger (edited by Rodger Dodger 2010-12-26 17:20:53)

  • M2S
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

The issues such as how do combat players make nic and the quality of missions are seperate, niether of which should be resolved by the kernel rush and none of which have anything to do with any one corp.

Blaster wrote:

*cough* m2s *cough* so after you made bilions of NIC by doing this, you decide you made enough so other players cant catch you up? Good call! lol

Would it help if I said I had this view prior to joining M2S and my being a member of M2S has nothing to do with the realisation that there is a definate problem. If I was kicked from corp today I would still believe this is a problem because it does actually exist.

There are in fact several problems involved here all coming together to form a rather damaging issue to the economy but also feed into several other issues such as Beta incentive and pilots in mechs that exceed their skill set. All of these have the same root cause in common; NPC buy orders for kernels.

The factors include but not limited to:

  • disparity between buy orders

  • rate at which low level kernels can be farmed (npc respawn rate)

  • no risk high reward factor

  • NPCs having such a high impact on a supposedly player driven market

Some suggested ways forward include but not limited to:

  • Increase the size of kernels to take up more cargo space

  • Low end kernels e.g. from mechs only found on Alpha need their buy orders significantly reduced

  • missions need a slight tweak (nothing too much or problems return)

  • miscellaneous loot value needs to be upped (perhaps reduce cost to repair)

  • risk has to be part of any reward.

  • BKK
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

IMHO , the problem is not "the low risk, high reward" on the alpha islands for anything

its the "high risk, low reward" on the beta island for the majority of the playerbase: single player or small corp, that dont have ownership on an outpost.

Styx's farming example is a bit the extreme.

When i was on beta island, in Joke - i couldn't do anything that i liked during the times i was on. Mining on Beta island cant be done AFK if none of your corpmembers is in TS to tell you intel, your allies kick you from TS because they fear spys, and NPC farming needs either good equipment or at least three player to be fun (2x DPS, 1x active Sequer looting)

Alpha island higher then rank1 spawns, that can be farmed alone with average equip and extensions are pretty rare (and those are camped very often).

Theres that really high wall you have to overcome between lvl1 and lvl2 regarding the difficulty (risk) , but it isn't reflected in your reward.

  • *
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: Remove NPC Buy Orders for Kernels

Annihilator wrote:

Styx's farming example is a bit the extreme.

For an organised corporation it really isn't. We did this regularly in OB and we'll be doing it again in release for the kernels.