151 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-06-14 16:49:30)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Duane Dibbley wrote:

ATM there is NO 100% permajam in that scenario, maybe 70% on heavies, those that say there is, are lying.

1 ECCM would reduce that chance down to 40%.

Please supply the relevant ewar strength or fits.  It seems to me that you just made these numbers up but it's hard to test because you don't specify the exact scenario you are talking about.

I know for a fact that the standard single tuning camelion Mk2 can lock down a mech reliably for as long as necessary.  What are you referring to?

+1
-Confucius

152 (edited by Duane Dibbley 2014-06-14 18:18:40)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

We are not talking about tuners, that has been conceded that they have problems and need looking at.


Look at my revised calcs plz, fits are there using maxed skills, I edited my post, alongside % timings of 1 ECCM and 2 ECCM.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

There are 2 differences

a) ECM on its own
b) ECM with ECM Tuning

We have already explained over the past 7 pages that ECM on its own is perfectly fine and balanced, the ECM tuning however is brokenly overpowered and needs to be looked at.

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154 (edited by Burial 2014-06-14 18:35:12)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Repeating your view doesn't make it any more true. The problem is ECCM. It NEEDS a giant boost.

155 (edited by Duane Dibbley 2014-06-14 19:01:22)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

Repeating your view doesn't make it any more true. The problem is ECCM. It NEEDS a giant boost.

Why, please give figures like I have, fitting 1 ECCM in a heavy V a Cam mk 2 with 4 ECMs allows that heavy to put out 58% over time, of it's total DPS, what figure do you think that should be?

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

ECM tuners need to go. If Devs boost ECCM or any bot sensor strength then we're forced to use tuners in head slots that are crowded enough.

Kill the tuner. It was a poorly thought out addition to ewar balance and dynamics.

Sparking to other games

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

Repeating your view doesn't make it any more true. The problem is ECCM. It NEEDS a giant boost.


Norrdec wrote:
Burial wrote:

We are in the topic because even if someone spares 2-3 headslots for ECCM it doesn't work nearly as good as it should.

And how good should it work then? 100% invulnerable to ECM with 2 ECCMs?



HOW do you think it should work. Simple question and you didnt respond.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

158 (edited by Burial 2014-06-14 20:09:17)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Rex Amelius wrote:

ECM tuners need to go. If Devs boost ECCM or any bot sensor strength then we're forced to use tuners in head slots that are crowded enough.

Kill the tuner. It was a poorly thought out addition to ewar balance and dynamics.

It's not only about ECM though. Suppressors are just as bad. That's why I'm proposing beefing up ECCM since they both are overpowered.

Why do suppressors modules have higher EW strength than ECM modules while Zeniths also have range bonus??

Norrdec wrote:

HOW do you think it should work. Simple question and you didnt respond.

ECCM and especially additional ECCM on top of the first one needs to be more effective.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Answer my question then, with a figure.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

My compilation of posts in the past 6 pages accurately disproves any need for ECCM buffs or extensions.

ECM Tunings are the problem.

Repeating your view doesn't make it true. It just means you're prepared to repeat it until you manage to fool Dev Alf into nuking the game balance so you can run around without the necessary ECCMs and still not worry about EWar.

Dear Devs, only thing that needs to be addressed is the ECM tuning. ECM, ECCM, Sensor Strength, and EW in general are perfectly balanced. Run the numbers with/without ECM Tuning, you will understand in 10 minutes.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

Repeating your view doesn't make it true. It just means you're prepared to repeat it until you manage to fool Dev Alf into nuking the game balance so you can run around without the necessary ECCMs and still not worry about EWar.

I want ECCM-s to be stronger to run around without any ECCMs?

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I don't PVP in this game. I'm not sure where the numbers should be to make ECM/ECCM 'balanced'. I will just share what I have learned from many pvp-based MMOs I have played in the past, some of which were successful and some of which weren't.

Nothing pisses a newbie off faster than getting into a fight and not being able to shoot the other guy. It's a purely psychological thing, the feeling of helplessness as they hurt you but you can't hurt them. It's been compared to being abused by a bully or a cop or a judge, even being ***, someone who utterly controls your fate and can do anything to you they want, and to whom you can do nothing.

Stun-lock KILLS games. The more common the stun-lock the faster people leave the game. It's a horrible game design choice and it causes a lot of whining and grief. The faster you can move away from a stun-lock situation the better.

UO, DAoC, WoW, EQ1, they all had stun-lock situations that were eventually nerfed into the ground. For good reason.

ECM/Suppressors/Enwar are all varieties of stun-lock. I support the notion of drastically reducing them all to mere nuisances.

Even if the game ends up fleets of remote-reps and heavies. Better that than stun-lock that prevents people from playing the game.

163 (edited by Duane Dibbley 2014-06-15 00:42:04)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Repeating your view doesn't make it true. It just means you're prepared to repeat it until you manage to fool Dev Alf into nuking the game balance so you can run around without the necessary ECCMs and still not worry about EWar.

I want ECCM-s to be stronger to run around without any ECCMs?


I have given some figures without the new skill from a heavy fitted with 2*T4 Amps V Cam Mk2 4*T4 ECM

0 ECCM 23% total DPS
1 ECCM 58% total DPS
2 ECCM 70% total DPS

What do you feel those figures should be to be ~balanced~ ?



Xira Indy Production wrote:

I don't PVP in this game. Blah blah blah.

ECM/Suppressors/Enwar are all varieties of stun-lock. I support the notion of drastically reducing them all to mere nuisances.

Your opinion is not valid, actually, tell me also what the above values should be in your estimation please?

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

ECM is NOT the only problem.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Your avoidance of actually answering the question is though.

166 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-06-15 00:42:00)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Xira Indy Production wrote:

I don't PVP in this game. I'm not sure where the numbers should be to make ECM/ECCM 'balanced'.

Nothing pisses a newbie off faster than getting into a fight and not being able to shoot the other guy. It's a purely psychological thing, the feeling of helplessness as they hurt you but you can't hurt them.

It's a fair point to make that being "stun-locked" is not fun. I argue that being shot and blow up, sent back to base is also not fun. Don't bother arguing the difference as we all have different definitions of "fun"

Still, addressing the PURE PSYCHOLOGICAL issue it's even more overkill to "fun" to completely eliminate a dynamic in game combat, especially in a game with a severe lack of diversity in bots and mods as this one.

If Devs ever remove the anti - lock aspect of ewar it should only be IF replaced by similarly effective effects to the specific moduals. An example is you can still lock but some or all your guns, optimal range diminishes, or shut down completely or their 'accuracy' dimnishes.

But these are long term changes. Your FUN is no more important than mine! And a game with one - dimensional combat is a *** bore!

Sparking to other games

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

BTW Burial, your new Avatar suits your persona far better than the previous one. big_smile

168 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-06-15 22:43:27)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Xira Indy Production wrote:

Nothing pisses a newbie off faster than getting into a fight and not being able to shoot the other guy. It's a purely psychological thing, the feeling of helplessness as they hurt you but you can't hurt them. It's been compared to being abused by a bully or a cop or a judge, even being ***, someone who utterly controls your fate and can do anything to you they want, and to whom you can do nothing.

In most MMOs the psychological argument is enough.  However, in most MMOs the outcomes of fights don't have any lasting effects on the game as a whole.

The main problem with the ECM mechanic as it is currently is that it makes numbers a much more decisive factor.

The main thing that makes perpetuum pvp more interesting than eve pvp is the use of terrain.  ECM ignores terrain and positioning, instead allowing the side that fields more people to simply shut down their opposition.

Take an example of a fight of 6 vs 4.  If the side with 6 can bring 4 camelions (or even better 2 cam 2 intakts), 1 ictus and a dps mech, what combination of 4 bots will really be able to stand up against that?

(this actually sounds like a fun exercise for the test server if people can be bothered)

+1
-Confucius

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Rex Amelius wrote:

...
But these are long term changes. Your FUN is no more important than mine! And a game with one - dimensional combat is a *** bore!

well, you could rephrase that:
The fun of a majority, that avoids playing the game, is no more important then the fun of the minority that playing the game as it is.

At least DEV Alf already stated that his goal is to make the game fun for a majority, not the minority.
ECM, Supressor, Demobs and Neuting are 100% stunlocks for anyone who has not exactly the ideal counterfit at the moment he faces someone maxed out on those systems.

I don't know what more boring - a PvP only game that only a handfull of players worldwide play, or a PvP game with lots of player with a little less negative gameplay elements.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

170 (edited by Syndic 2014-06-15 23:38:44)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Kaldenines wrote:

In most MMOs the psychological argument is enough.  However, in most MMOs the outcomes of fights don't have any lasting effects on the game as a whole.

The main problem with the ECM mechanic as it is currently is that it makes numbers a much more decisive factor.

The main thing that makes perpetuum pvp more interesting than eve pvp is the use of terrain.  ECM ignores terrain and positioning, instead allowing the side that fields more people to simply shut down their opposition.

Take an example of a fight of 6 vs 4.  If the side with 6 can bring 4 camelions (or even better 2 cam 2 intakts), 1 ictus and a dps mech, what combination of 4 bots will really be able to stand up against that?

(this actually sounds like a fun exercise for the test server if people can be bothered)

That's a loaded argument.

But the answer is 3 kains and 1 tyrannos.

Annihilator wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:

...
But these are long term changes. Your FUN is no more important than mine! And a game with one - dimensional combat is a *** bore!

well, you could rephrase that:
The fun of a majority, that avoids playing the game, is no more important then the fun of the minority that playing the game as it is.

At least DEV Alf already stated that his goal is to make the game fun for a majority, not the minority.
ECM, Supressor, Demobs and Neuting are 100% stunlocks for anyone who has not exactly the ideal counterfit at the moment he faces someone maxed out on those systems.

I don't know what more boring - a PvP only game that only a handfull of players worldwide play, or a PvP game with lots of player with a little less negative gameplay elements.


Dev Alf can put these ideas in the game tomorrow, 3 months down the line he will have to come up with similar ideas about Ictus mk2. 3 months down the line, similar ideas about remote-repair. 3 months down the line, similar ideas about Heavy mk2. Then 3 months down the line, nobody will be using mk2 anymore.

And then after all the complexity and multi-layered countering systems are stripped down to bare-bones, we'll be down to who can get the most accounts actively targetting and shooting while mining at the same time on another screen.

And then it becomes a war of attrition ala WW1.

Bottom line is the game balance is a very complex system of what counters what and how. You can't go in with a sledgehammer, smash a few EWar changes around, and not expect every other factor previously held in check to suddenly become overpowered.

And at the end of the day 2>1, always.

The only ones getting shafted here are the newbies who will be useless for 6 months instead of 1-2. Vets have enough accounts, assets and EP to swap things around.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Kaldenines wrote:
Xira Indy Production wrote:

Nothing pisses a newbie off faster than getting into a fight and not being able to shoot the other guy. It's a purely psychological thing, the feeling of helplessness as they hurt you but you can't hurt them. It's been compared to being abused by a bully or a cop or a judge, even being ***, someone who utterly controls your fate and can do anything to you they want, and to whom you can do nothing.

In most MMOs the psychological argument is enough.  However, in most MMOs the outcomes of fights don't have any lasting effects on the game as a whole.

The main problem with the ECM mechanic as it is currently is that it makes numbers a much more decisive factor.

The main thing that makes perpetuum pvp more interesting than eve pvp is the use of terrain.  ECM ignores terrain and positioning, instead allowing the side that fields more people to simply shut down their opposition.

Take an example of a fight of 6 vs 4.  If the side with 6 can bring 4 camelions (or even better 2 cam 2 intakts), 1 ictus and a dps mech, what combination of 4 bots will really be able to stand up against that?

(this actually sounds like a fun exercise for the test server if people can be bothered)


ECM is a force multiplier.  Staying that way favors smaller groups with less DPS.  It makes both DPS and EWAR incredibly useful...while at the same time making fights more than how many DPS bots you have on the field.

Making EWAR a novelty will not help those who just want to bring DPS to a fight and then get upset when they lose to a well balanced fleet, it will simply defer their issue to another scapegoat, and since flooding zooms tickets with complaints now is proven to work...well

If you make EWAR a novelty, you sure as hell better refund all EWAR and special ops EP.  That or be very quick with making a DPS bot that is able to equip the ewar novelties as to not make some players accounts worthless.

The problem with ewar is one group of people uses them well, while other groups cant grasp it beyond the assumption that its OP and its not their fault for improperly using them.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

Repeating your view doesn't make it any more true. The problem is ECCM. It NEEDS a giant boost.

Some posts you say the above.


Burial wrote:

ECM is NOT the only problem.

And in other posts you say the above.



You can't even make up your mind.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

173

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

If you think ecm us op, take 150k ep cam pilot against a Bot that has 1 eccm.

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174 (edited by Annihilator 2014-06-16 17:13:23)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Gremrod wrote:
Burial wrote:

Repeating your view doesn't make it any more true. The problem is ECCM. It NEEDS a giant boost.

Some posts you say the above.


Burial wrote:

ECM is NOT the only problem.

And in other posts you say the above.



You can't even make up your mind.

huh? his posts are not contradicting. he says that ECM is not the only problem, and ECCM beeing to weak is a problem.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

In the current state, 2 ECCM's nullify EWar to the point of being useless.

The extension with its buffs to base bot & ECCM, combined with the selfish crusade by 4-5 people who don't play the game, makes it so 1 ECCM (out of 6 heavy head-slots) is enough to drop EWar efficiency below 25%, and 2 ECCM's achieves EW-immunity.

ECM tuning is the problem. 35% strength advantage > 10% accu-usage disadvantage.

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