Topic: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

I made a post in this forum only to be shot down by those who would rather see their game fade to black than fix it.

Here is an article that really hits home on why this game will truly have challenges to survive and some ideas on how to fix it.


http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/20 … p-sandbox/

I am only posting, because I am trying to help, not to harass.

Best

2 (edited by Dazamin 2014-06-05 19:05:06)

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

I'm not sure I'd agree its a very good article, also I took a look at his older article regarding Sandbox MMOs, and it seems Perpetuum does most of what he wants http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/30 … r-sandbox/ most are decent ideas, but the ones around PvP not so much.

There should be consequences around PvP, but I don't see any good ideas in there about what those should be, I will however agree that broadly Perp suffers from a very binary system, Zero non consensual PvP on Alpha, to anything goes on beta, with nothing in between, but if you want to change that, you have to put actual ideas forward, not just say bah FFA sucks!!! (It doesn't some people like it, others don't, same as anything else)

3 (edited by Gremrod 2014-06-05 19:18:23)

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Yes, conflict drives games, no kidding. But stop taking the lazy way out and using poorly designed FFA PvP as your game's primary (and in many cases, only) source of conflict. You are building a sandbox MMO! You're not building a respawn shooter. Yes, it will take more time and money to design and implement tangible in-game economic and political conflict systems. Yes it will take more time and money to design and implement penal systems for those players who will knowingly and continually try to flaunt the rules. And yes, it will take more time and money to play-test, balance, and perfect all those systems.

I agree the elements we fight for here in Perpetuum are weak sandbox elements. The gamma elements are better elements to fight for but still have issues when it comes to solid pvp (I want your stuff or your area is better than my area.)

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

4 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-06-05 23:49:15)

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

My impression of the article is that it's a poorly edited stream of consciousness.  The only conclusion appears to be that no developers should try to make open world pvp or sandbox pvp games. 

The author forgets to mention the success of Starwars Galaxies or upcoming games like repopulation or the fact that star citizen got ludicrous amounts of kickstarter money.  He also writes off EvE as some kind of fluke/failure (eve is dying!). Clearly there is a demand for these games.

One valid point that the writer only hints at is that just throwing lots of options at players will not automatically cause them to create content that anyone actually wants to experience.
 
Imho creating an open world pvp game is much more of a fine art than building a bunch of dungeons/battlegrounds for players to grind through before quitting.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

I like the article, but it doesn't really apply to Perpetuum.

Perp had avoided basic pitfalls by copying and improving core elements of the only successful FFA PVP sandbox out there.
The problems Perp is facing are of a higher order: global market, territory control, pbs/gamma... None of this is working properly as far as I'm concerned.
Also, the "EVE Trap" of new players having to suffer for months before they become viable. I guess most people don't even consider it a problem.

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Mark Zima wrote:

the "EVE Trap"

is definitely a problem.  It's not a coincidence that most active players in this game are current or ex-eve players.  New players are stuck being barely able to afford a bot until they discover artifacting and get lucky with a CT or a few cortexes.  Why do missions pay so little?

+1
-Confucius

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Kaldenines wrote:
Mark Zima wrote:

the "EVE Trap"

is definitely a problem.  It's not a coincidence that most active players in this game are current or ex-eve players.  New players are stuck being barely able to afford a bot until they discover artifacting and get lucky with a CT or a few cortexes.  Why do missions pay so little?

+1.  I haven't done a mission since the golden triangle disappeared smile

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Wow ur still here kuntrapshun ? Isn't the sky falling? Shouldn't u be underground some place?

We are playing chess and the rest of perp is playing checkers.   http://stringcan.com/wp-content/uploads … 80x305.jpg     
http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkore321/videos

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

World of Warcraft that way   ---->

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

I think your championing a cause thats not winnable.  Sure games that constantly cater to players whims, giving them the best stuff with little effort and no risk involved, are very popular.  The same way the free cheese line is always full.  The point of FFA PVP is not the hurting of the other player, but the risk and loss possible every time you undock.  Sure its great rewards too, but what makes FFA PVP interesting and engaging is that nervous voice in the back of your head gnawing at your mind about how much this bot costs to lose.  That inner dialog alone makes more MEANINGFUL PVP.   Why go take the castle in a battle ground, if you just took the same castle 300 times today in previous instances of battlegrounds.  Wouldn't you like to go in and take the base of arathi bason in WoW and subjugate and tax the populace that work there.  Put your flag on the stone arch and fortify it against all invaders.  Yeah it would be amazing. Yeah it would, but you cant have that because the next guy in line has to get his free cheese.  So if you take the base away, he cant go in and get his BS marks or whatever crypto currency they are pimping you out for.  Besides game like Wow are steadily dropping in popularity. The only reason they start off good is because of the sheer numbers of players that are looking for the right experience.

11 (edited by Mrs Kontrapshun 2014-06-06 17:47:23)

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

I'm still here, but not playing ATM due to the game being boring. I did buy it and log in to skill the two toons I have just to see if things change later.

The point of the article wasn't to champion a cause of Free Stuff, not at all.

Here are the points I think are important and why complete Open world PVP has serious challenges.

1) GANK default play style = As solo players have a very difficult play experience, so much so that there is little gratification to get into the PVP side of game. I understand that seasoned players just can't get the idea of starting as a new player that knows nothing about this game (doesn't love the game yet) or wanting to be a solo player in an MMO game.
2) GRIEFING = In EVE that is their call sign. The Devs want people to be mean to one another, rude, and basic jerks. One guy even told another to kill himself in RL.. and the player didn't even get banned.
3) NO CONTEST / NO Consequence = When a new player joins, they are treated with disrespect when entering PVP. They are immediately attacked for no apparent reason with absolutely no consequence for the attacker. This just goes against every ethical value we hold dear. Why should we get away with this in a game. Only players who have a poor sense of social awareness enjoy destroying another player for no reason with no consequence. It's even more obvious when a gang kills one player who didn't have a chance. No honor, no limits.

Star Citizen looks to be a great game that although is labeled as a Sandbox, is nothing like EVE or this game regarding PVP. They have stated many times that anything you do will have a consequence and YES I own a Connie....and about every ship they have available, as I believe that game will break this Gank mold...

What PVP should be.

1) It should be a challenge to both sides.
2) It should promote fair play and balanced interaction so BOTH players have fun.
3) It should be playable as a part time experience without being a Borg member. It's crazy that someone spends so much of their time playing a video game... Uninstall and move on to Tennis!
4) It's Okay to be a villain, but just know there are reasons not to be a villain also and feel the effects if you play that way. This game and most all Open Sandbox games like it FAIL when it comes to understand that All players should have fun playing and not just the chosen few who started first. In PVP for this game, the default play is to be bad....why?

PS... I've never Played WOW or anything that has an Elf in it..... just seems wrong!

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

you may have some valid points in there.

you have edited out already the thing about real life.... i respond to it anyway:
some here even "play" the game when they are at work. the defend the idea of minimal interaction resource collection with the argument that its good that they can do it while they are occupied with real life stuff.
i have even heard about some logging in via teamviewer to remote control their PC while at work, to participate in BvB battles.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Mrs Kontrapshun wrote:

I'm still here, but not playing ATM due to the game being boring. I did buy it and log in to skill the two toons I have just to see if things change later.

The point of the article wasn't to champion a cause of Free Stuff, not at all.

Here are the points I think are important and why complete Open world PVP has serious challenges.

1) GANK default play style = As solo players have a very difficult play experience, so much so that there is little gratification to get into the PVP side of game. I understand that seasoned players just can't get the idea of starting as a new player that knows nothing about this game (doesn't love the game yet) or wanting to be a solo player in an MMO game.
2) GRIEFING = In EVE that is their call sign. The Devs want people to be mean to one another, rude, and basic jerks. One guy even told another to kill himself in RL.. and the player didn't even get banned.
3) NO CONTEST / NO Consequence = When a new player joins, they are treated with disrespect when entering PVP. They are immediately attacked for no apparent reason with absolutely no consequence for the attacker. This just goes against every ethical value we hold dear. Why should we get away with this in a game. Only players who have a poor sense of social awareness enjoy destroying another player for no reason with no consequence. It's even more obvious when a gang kills one player who didn't have a chance. No honor, no limits.

Star Citizen looks to be a great game that although is labeled as a Sandbox, is nothing like EVE or this game regarding PVP. They have stated many times that anything you do will have a consequence and YES I own a Connie....and about every ship they have available, as I believe that game will break this Gank mold...

What PVP should be.

1) It should be a challenge to both sides.
2) It should promote fair play and balanced interaction so BOTH players have fun.
3) It should be playable as a part time experience without being a Borg member. It's crazy that someone spends so much of their time playing a video game... Uninstall and move on to Tennis!
4) It's Okay to be a villain, but just know there are reasons not to be a villain also and feel the effects if you play that way. This game and most all Open Sandbox games like it FAIL when it comes to understand that All players should have fun playing and not just the chosen few who started first. In PVP for this game, the default play is to be bad....why?

PS... I've never Played WOW or anything that has an Elf in it..... just seems wrong!

You've come up with an artificial set of rules you think everyone should play by.

Your concept completely breaks down the moment a single person ignores your artificial ruleset and kills you in a way you deem to be "dishonorable". What do you do then, submit a ticket because someone killed you in a "dishonorable" way?

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

you are so far from reality

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

"everyone should play the game the way I want them to" -narcissistic poster

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

I cant come in to a multiplayer game and play solo and pvp solo


who are these people?  lol

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

17 (edited by Mrs Kontrapshun 2014-06-07 01:20:40)

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

I understand your points of view completely, and if it was just your game alone, it would work.

It's really not changing the rules, it's about setting up a structured sandbox mechanic that limits by consequence what any one player or player base can do to effect the entire game and all new players experiences.

From my understanding of this game and as well as it's bigger clone. When a player commits a crime against another player (let's say unprovoked miner gank for this example) in this game there is no consequence that I am aware of. In Eve the consequence is so minimal that it's almost no consequence since it's so easy to get security status back with Clone tags. In Null Sec there is none at all.

In real life there are tons of consequences for your actions, but not in an open Sandbox MMO... Why?  When you open your game up to the players to decide how it will run, you do several things.

1) You condemn your game to Gank Status and only those in power will enjoy it (most of you).
2) You limit your player base as new players won't stay, they just won't. Eve will be finished once SC is released in force, they know it and all the players know it. Even CCP knows it, that's why they don't add any real content and build other console games. It's had it's time and refuses to change. This game will also fail without a publisher that cares about ALL Players experiences, there is no other course.

The only reason to leave it as is, is because the publisher just doesn't know how to make it work otherwise. They just throw in some NPC's and leave the rest up to the players to work it out. No cost to them other than bug fixes.

Been there done that.

It's not about my way, it's the way gaming should be. You just don't go to a friends house to play Monopoly and trash his living room, burn the board pieces and eat all his food, while laughing at the fun.... well you eat the food, but not the rest.

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Mrs Kontrapshun wrote:

I understand your points of view completely, and if it was just your game alone, it would work.

It's really not changing the rules, it's about setting up a structured sandbox mechanic that limits by consequence what any one player or player base can do to effect the entire game and all new players experiences.

From my understanding of this game and as well as it's bigger clone. When a player commits a crime against another player (let's say unprovoked miner gank for this example) in this game there is no consequence that I am aware of. In Eve the consequence is so minimal that it's almost no consequence since it's so easy to get security status back with Clone tags. In Null Sec there is none at all.

In real life there are tons of consequences for your actions, but not in an open Sandbox MMO... Why?  When you open your game up to the players to decide how it will run, you do several things.

1) You condemn your game to Gank Status and only those in power will enjoy it (most of you).
2) You limit your player base as new players won't stay, they just won't. Eve will be finished once SC is released in force, they know it and all the players know it. Even CCP knows it, that's why they don't add any real content and build other console games. It's had it's time and refuses to change. This game will also fail without a publisher that cares about ALL Players experiences, there is no other course.

The only reason to leave it as is, is because the publisher just doesn't know how to make it work otherwise. They just throw in some NPC's and leave the rest up to the players to work it out. No cost to them other than bug fixes.

Been there done that.

It's not about my way, it's the way gaming should be. You just don't go to a friends house to play Monopoly and trash his living room, burn the board pieces and eat all his food, while laughing at the fun.... well you eat the food, but not the rest.

No I'm sorry, you don't understand.

When you go into a PVP zone here, you're not walking into a neutral structured arena where you have fair honorable odds. You walk into someones territory, and as a rule of thumb they don't want you there. They will kill you with as many people as can wh*re on the killmail, not out of some hurhur-evil-gankers mentality but simply as one of the methods at their disposal to discourage you from coming back again.

Games like these don't revolve around the individual as a singular sentient unit having fun - they revolve around organizations of players, setting challenges for themselves and overcoming them.

And I'm genuinely interested - who are you to tell me, or anyone else for that matter, what way gaming should be?

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Kaldenines wrote:
Mark Zima wrote:

the "EVE Trap"

is definitely a problem.  It's not a coincidence that most active players in this game are current or ex-eve players.  New players are stuck being barely able to afford a bot until they discover artifacting and get lucky with a CT or a few cortexes.  Why do missions pay so little?


This is a sanbox factor. The NIC is there, it just isn't in the cookie cutter content like assignments. There is more NIC in finding a level 1 spawn and just killing for plasma. It won't get you as much as Cortex farming but that is very hit and miss, similar to MK2 CTs.

In addition, artifacting is a sort of forced trash factor. In order to repopulate your scans, you need to eliminate the ones there. If you don't do them they will stay there indefinitely.

- Knowing that if you have 10 infestations, you know you have 4 hrs of trash because I have never had a solid drop from an Infestation.
- Industrial and salvage do drop Cortex but its very rare and they are otherwise not even paying for the probes.
- If you get a dirty streak of Science on top of that, it can cost you millions in probes.
- Observer Stash are junk, the loot is in the Observer spawn and they will shred a new player in under a minute.

The point being, new players need to sandbox the content to make NIC and I do support that content direction. It's what sells Perpetuum or will if there is ever a concerted campaign to sell Perp, either company or player side.

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Rage Blackout wrote:

I cant come in to a multiplayer game and play solo and pvp solo


who are these people?  lol

They certainly exist.

[14:15:15] <Freya Sabbat> ...Dear god, the Devs are as bad as us

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

DEV Gargaj wrote:
Rage Blackout wrote:

I cant come in to a multiplayer game and play solo and pvp solo


who are these people?  lol

They certainly exist.

lol, the comment below it... "this is not an mmo"
so, the definition of "Massive Multiplayer Online" was already degraded to arena multiplayer with a lobby?

Gargaj, its about time you give this child a new genre name.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Skydell wrote:

The point being, new players need to sandbox the content to make NIC and I do support that content direction. It's what sells Perpetuum or will if there is ever a concerted campaign to sell Perp, either company or player side.

I am all for sandbox type content but there is nothing sandboxy about doing the same mindless thing over and over for money (missions or artifacting). Also it's no great secret that artifacting makes more money than missions.

<rant>
There is also nothing sandboxy about new players getting the (wrong) impression that all there is to do is run missions on alpha for many hours just to get a better bot to run missions in.
Sandboxy elements come from player interaction, being able to build things (modules, terraforming, even those dam walls smile ) and being able to fit your bots for different purposes.

The "grind" exists in games like this to give intrinsic value to the items that players obtain.  However, I think we are going to see more and more games where mindless grind is being replaced by game-play that is actually enjoyable in it's own right.

So far most of these haven't been proper MMOs (Diablo, World of Tanks, War Thunder, Planetside).  Although you could argue that WoW battlegrounds were the first to take a step in that direction.

I am not advocating instanced battlegrounds for gear (hell no) but I would be all for giving people a good reason to run around beta in effectively fit combat bots.
</rant>

+1
-Confucius

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Game is not real life. It's an escape. When you 'die' here you come back every time. Trying to tie RL morals to video games is misguided.

But discussion on game design that enhances game play and creates more fun dynamic environment always welcome.

In any event you can bet I'll shoot you for no good reason.

Sparking to other games

24 (edited by Mrs Kontrapshun 2014-06-08 06:06:30)

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Rex Amelius wrote:

In any event you can bet I'll shoot you for no good reason.

Really, most of the comments are so anti-social it amazes.

Nothing more needs to be said..... since most of you seem to miss that playing with other people means you should think about their gaming experience and not only yours, all of them! If you're the type of person that "makes your day by ruining someone else's day", then your happiness is all that matters.

Dev's should ask questions like

1) Are there any consequences for actions in the game to make it interesting for all?
2) Are small groups of players controlling the games future?
3) Are PVP zones locked for new players and locked for dynamic content?
4) Do all players have an opportunity to experience the game content?
5) Is there unacceptable bad behavior by players against other players that don't represent our long term goals?
6) Is our game interesting, challenging and basically balanced for solo players for PVE and PVP?
7) Does the game facilitate battles for groups of players and still maintain our other goals?
8) How can we improve our game to limit bottlenecks and stagnate game play?

who cares, right?

25 (edited by Annihilator 2014-06-08 10:22:30)

Re: Best Article I've read on why FFA-PVP is a fail..... have at it.

Mrs Kontrapshun wrote:

Really, most of the comments are so anti-social it amazes.

Nothing more needs to be said..... since most of you seem to miss that playing with other people means you should think about their gaming experience and not only yours, all of them! If you're the type of person that "makes your day by ruining someone else's day", then your happiness is all that matters.

Dev's should ask questions like

1) Are there any consequences for actions in the game to make it interesting for all?
2) Are small groups of players controlling the games future?
3) Are PVP zones locked for new players and locked for dynamic content?
4) Do all players have an opportunity to experience the game content?
5) Is there unacceptable bad behavior by players against other players that don't represent our long term goals?
6) Is our game interesting, challenging and basically balanced for solo players for PVE and PVP?
7) Does the game facilitate battles for groups of players and still maintain our other goals?
8) How can we improve our game to limit bottlenecks and stagnate game play?

who cares, right?

let me tell you, we had that discussion already 4 years ago, when a group of player, that had a significant influence in development of the game, and who are the "Heros" of those posting here against you.

for example syndics corp has the declared goal to grief another, rather big, corp out of the game (aka reducing the number of active player). Even though thats a kind of violation of the EULA, the DEVs won't react to that due to other circumstances.

edit:
BUT, the DEVs have also stated recently that they have a new goal in mind that could remove that mold from the game:

DEV Alf wrote:

Also keep in mind that we don't talk about only fleet compositions, we have to take the funfactor of individual players into account.

it was not related to this topic here in particular, but its the first time i have read on the official forums that DEV considering the fun of individual player

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear