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I curious to find out why this was never mentioned when we all asked for ICE, which actually does the same, only difference is you buy the stuff ingame buy selling ICE instead of on a steam market.
You can spin it however you want, a plex-type system is simply a pay2win system: you put in real cash, you get lots of ingame cash.
When EVE did this, they already had a stable market and economy. We don't have that, and introducing the system now would probably create massive inflation, turn NIC worthless, and make "plexes" effectively a must-have for everyone.
Zoom what happend. 
Really, when did this topic become "ICE was the evilest of things", when clearly it was applauded by most of you? I had my reservations before it was introduced but I admit I was wrong and it helped the economy back then.
Really, when did this topic become "ICE was the evilest of things", when clearly it was applauded by most of you? I had my reservations before it was introduced but I admit I was wrong and it helped the economy back then.
It still will, they are just making it a big issue when it's not. Pay to win only happens when money gives you an advantage over what is possible using the game tools. An example of this might be If PvP ammo was changed to only be used by the person who bought it in the cash shop and not able to be traded.
In this game that's never going to happen. You will have the opportunity to manufacture anything you can buy. Even if at some point in the future exclusive cash shop items are created you will still be able to trade them in game.
The big problem I see is allowing players to trade items for cash. I think that the items should be spawned and the money go to the Dev team.
I would like to see the Devs selling fit versions of bots, mechs and heavies mk1 and mk2 with yellow /green / blue PvP and PVE packs etc. I would also like to see the vanguard and t4+ etc stuff pitched at quite a high price with maybe 100 dollars for a fit heavy. Much like eve people would still buy them, pvp in them and die in a fire putting the loot on the market as well as buy them to sell for nic.
a) You buy ICE with $$$, sell it on the market for NIC, buy stuff with NIC.
b) You buy stuff from the market with $$$.
A does not equal B.
With the ICE option there is no way for corps or players to make $$$. That's the difference. Once people can make $$$ by cashing out on in-game assets, you legitimize gold-farming and destroy the in-game economy.
You're being greedy short-sighted pigdogs over pennies.
Really, when did this topic become "ICE was the evilest of things", when clearly it was applauded by most of you? I had my reservations before it was introduced but I admit I was wrong and it helped the economy back then.
I myself was not playing at the time it was being talked about nor done. Then when it went b2p, ICE was being stopped, so seen no need to talk about it. Now that I am back, and yall are thinking of something even more stupid, I am letting myself be heard.
Also, you're mixing apples and oranges Zoom.
We applauded ICE because it allowed people who didn't want to subscribe 10$ per account every month an option to continue playing. That was the whole point of ICE, not RMT.
There's no 10$/account/month barrier anymore, so it's redundant.
You're being greedy short-sighted pigdogs over pennies.
Ow.
Sorry brosef you know I love you the most, but I gotta say what needs to be said. Nobody would be happier then me if I didn't have to. 
This whole thing has been quite disappointing tbfh.
Bring back the ICE (age), instead of gametime it gives you Perpetuum Credits, and more fluff stuff to buy with PC, and scratch the STEAM wallet thingy.
I like the idea of just being able to sell the perpetuum credits on the market. People can use it for their ep boost sub or respecting skill and will fuel the economy in a similar was as ice without tying in anything from steam. Yes you can still dump loads of money into the game to buy nic but the difference between this and eve is that the industrial aspects can't be botted to my knowledge or the player vs perpetuum aspect either. Would keep bots from crashing your in game economy but still add your revinue without a 'cash out' option
Sorry brosef you know I love you the most, but I gotta say what needs to be said.
I honestly don't think the ad hominem part needed to be said - it's not like adding insult to an argument makes it stronger.
We had an idea, because it's a new possibility. Not always a good idea, but it's an idea. If it's collectively shot down, I'll just be happy that I don't need to write more code for it. We've backed down on ideas before.
Also, a few things to consider:
- The Steam economy is two-tiered: One is the trading, the other is the market. It is entirely possible to allow trading (which is pretty much identical to the in-game one, and we can make sure that we have the same restrictions), and not allowing the items to be sold.
- Because of the differences of how our item system and their item system works, there would need to be a buffer area between the two. This means that even if we go for the market we could place restrictions on which items can be traded, and even more restrictions of which items can be sold on the market. This essentially means that we could narrow down the market to e.g. vanity items.
Syndic wrote:Sorry brosef you know I love you the most, but I gotta say what needs to be said.
I honestly don't think the ad hominem part needed to be said - it's not like adding insult to an argument makes it stronger.
We had an idea, because it's a new possibility. Not always a good idea, but it's an idea. If it's collectively shot down, I'll just be happy that I don't need to write more code for it. We've backed down on ideas before.
Also, a few things to consider:
- The Steam economy is two-tiered: One is the trading, the other is the market. It is entirely possible to allow trading (which is pretty much identical to the in-game one, and we can make sure that we have the same restrictions), and not allowing the items to be sold.
- Because of the differences of how our item system and their item system works, there would need to be a buffer area between the two. This means that even if we go for the market we could place restrictions on which items can be traded, and even more restrictions of which items can be sold on the market. This essentially means that we could narrow down the market to e.g. vanity items.
You do realize ho upset game communities get over RMT right? I wish you had played Diablo 3 since launch, that tells you everything you need to know about what happens when you offer in game items for sale.
Doing this will kill the game, or at least guarantee it remains forever tiny.
Keep it all in game please. That is all I have to say about that.
a) You buy ICE with $$$, sell it on the market for NIC, buy stuff with NIC.
b) You buy stuff from the market with $$$.A does not equal B.
With the ICE option there is no way for corps or players to make $$$. That's the difference. Once people can make $$$ by cashing out on in-game assets, you legitimize gold-farming and destroy the in-game economy.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Devs,
Will I be able to Buy a one month package of Game Credits from Steam Market???
to boost my accounts or downgrade EP etc.
I curious to find out why this was never mentioned when we all asked for ICE, which actually does the same, only difference is you buy the stuff ingame buy selling ICE instead of on a steam market.
Celebro, the difference is with the steam market you have the ability to turn it into real world money.
EDIT: Here is a visual of the difference.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwaykz … sp=sharing
Celebro wrote:I curious to find out why this was never mentioned when we all asked for ICE, which actually does the same, only difference is you buy the stuff ingame buy selling ICE instead of on a steam market.
Celebro, the difference is with the steam market you have the ability to turn it into real world money.
EDIT: Here is a visual of the difference.
Yeah, but that currency is linked to your Steam account, not exactly 'real money'.
I personally don't like the idea of money being involved into the game, but devs seem like they need to make money else where, and EVE online gets media because 'such n such' is worth so much money.
Adding trading and market place to Perpetuum doesn't seem like a natural progression.
Not all players are steam players so while it benefit the newer or linked players it doesn't help some of the long term players.
It introduces real money value to good in Perpetuum. Currently the prices are based of market averages and such but are not connect to xxNIC = $xx. I never really liked the ICE but if it's available to be exploited (And I mean that in almost every sense) I'll exploit it as much as the next person.
Many wars in Perpetuum have been that of attrition. You grind the enemy down, slowly, over many months. Allowing sudden injection of NIC from the use of real currencies can massively disrupt this. It's no longer who puts in the most effort but who PVPs with the best stuff bought from the market.
You made a good move removing ICE, don't introduce another link back to RMT'ing.
If you want my money give me customisation. Expand what Perpetuum Credits do, allow me to buy gifts and such for other people with my Perpetuum Credits. Let me put my corporation logo on my robot, let me paint it funny but amazing colours. Allow new laser effects or damage effects that doesn't do anything but look pretty.
Valve have shown you can raise millions of dollars just by offering ways to change how your character looks compared to others. I don't mean a monocle for £70, but something fun and temporary that doesn't cost the earth. Make people WANT to go out and fight. Want people WANT to show off their awesome missile effect.
You've already stated you want to create a new engine, AWESOME! You'be already said you're enjoying the new players, awesome! Give them something customise! 
As usual you guys have raised many valid points. We'll be reevaluating the Steam Economy idea based on your concerns.
I wish you had played Diablo 3 since launch, that tells you everything you need to know about what happens when you offer in game items for sale.
I have. And all that story told me was that crowdsourcing random item generation in a game whose whole point is to keep rolling the RNG for better items is a very bad idea. Perpetuum is not a game like that. The RMAH in D3 was shut down because of the Auction House, not the Real Money component.
I'm not saying this in defense of RMT, just to clear up a common misconception regarding the AH shutdown in D3 because this argument kept popping up repeatedly.
Yeah, but that currency is linked to your Steam account, not exactly 'real money'.
I personally don't like the idea of money being involved into the game, but devs seem like they need to make money else where, and EVE online gets media because 'such n such' is worth so much money.
Steam money is "real money". There's plenty of sites where you can convert it into real currency in your paypal.
It has been mentioned, but the selling of items for (real) Steam money is very different to the selling of ICE. The ice can't be sold for money, only NIC, so you have the money coming from in game. Selling items on Steam means you items have a Real Cash Value. If I blow up a bot that I could have sold for $20, I am actually $20 worse off. If I blow up a bot that is worth mills of NICs, I have just spent some in game money playing a game, perfectly fine 
Personally I can buy boosters and am not upset by 'other people p2w', but I am very put off by my in game assets having a real cash value. Grinding in game for a few hours to earn an item is fine, but grinding out of game for it just feels wrong and wondering 'how much real money can I get for these pixels' just stops them being pixels and makes them into real assets.
My final point is that if people can make money from it, then they will (even for peanuts) and it will encourage any kind of scamming / stealing that could be gotten away with.
Stranger Danger wrote:I wish you had played Diablo 3 since launch, that tells you everything you need to know about what happens when you offer in game items for sale.
I have. And all that story told me was that crowdsourcing random item generation in a game whose whole point is to keep rolling the RNG for better items is a very bad idea. Perpetuum is not a game like that. The RMAH in D3 was shut down because of the Auction House, not the Real Money component.
I'm not saying this in defense of RMT, just to clear up a common misconception regarding the AH shutdown in D3 because this argument kept popping up repeatedly.
It was more a point about shifting motives for acquiring items via playing the game to acquiring them via buying them.
if you are going the pay 2 win then please say so when so I can drop the game.
If someone can come in and purchase whatever they want using money it devalues the player and their in game accomplishments. It also gives rise huge inflation.
Instead go with different launch animation, sounds for weapons, skins for mechs, hats, mini. All cosmetic and all have 0 influence on the outcome of the game.
But they do require work.
However if you feel it more important to make money off players than the value the ingame accomplishments there isnt much point in continuing on is there? Why play when someone can just buy their way in.
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