76 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 21:55:13)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Here's my key question:

What happened to claims of ECM being able to completely lock out a DPS bot?

We have it here in black and white: It took you ~3 minutes to kill a Vagabond Mk2 running 3 jammers, an ECM Tuning and an injector.

You forgot about the evasive there, but aight I won't mention it. I won't mention stacking an ECM Tuning with the Vagabond's 50% bonus either, because your results truly do speak for themselves.

Devs, I sincerely hope you read very carefully through those logs and check yourselves how a Vagabond Mk2 fares without an ECM tuning since Ozy neglected to provide us those logs. I on the other hand, have tested it and I can speak with confidence that the ECM Tuning needs to be looked at, not ECM itself.

And that's what I've been saying all along... EWar cannot permanently lockdown a target. EWar can SLOW the target's output, but it can NEVER negate it completely unless we are talking 2:1 odds in which case you're dead no matter what you're up against.

Ozy wrote:
Syndic wrote:

If the EWar doesn't jam, it wasted it's cycle. (10 seconds) If the Heavy gets jammed, it wasted it's cycle. (2-3 seconds)

Heavy with 230 SS (2 ECCMs) will get jammed 30-35% of the time without the changes.

That means the EWar has 65-70% chance to waste it's cycle (be irrelevant).

That's balance.

Your complaints are with ECM Tuning raising % to higher levels and I definitely agree the ECM Tuning needs heavy disadvantages to compensate for that 35% increase it brings.

However, you're asking the Devs to give you a Heavy that is impossibly hard to jam without needing to fit EWar defense, so you can stack tuners/range and not care.

If Ewar has a 65% chance to waste a cycle on a single module, it has a 60% chance to at least jam once when using two modules. When using three modules, it has a 75% chance to jam at least once. Also, people are NOT asking for heavies to easily fend off ewar, but for bots that actually go for the ewar counter to be more effective than they are now. At least, that's what i'm asking for. This doesn't only include heavies, by the way. A Mech with a similar fit is also still pretty ***. Below are some logs from the test-server.

Kain MK2 (EM Guns, 2 Amps, 2 ECCMs) vs Vaga MK2 (4 ECMs, 1 Tuner, 1 RE--only 3 of the ECMs were used against the target):
http://pastebin.com/ZpbZ38cu

Mesmer Mk2 (EM Guns, 2 Amps, 2 ECCMs, 1 RE) vs Vaga Mk2 (4 ECMs, 1 Tuner, 1 RE--only 3 of the ECMs were used against the target):
http://pastebin.com/SW6VWBHe

Yes, the Vaga was injecting, but the time the bots need to kill the ewar isn't really the main point here. Rather, how many of the ECMs still make it through. Maybe the primary issue is the tuning, which is why i suggesting messing with it only at first and then expanding to other (reasonable) modifications.

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77 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 22:26:13)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

It's surprising how long it actually took to kill the EW mech head-to-head with the supposed anti-ew Heavy fit even though there was no suppression used and the heavy had fast locking time. For a supposed anti-ew fit it performed very poorly.

From balancing point of view, it's not just heavies and mechs fighting. We also have lights and assaults that need balance. They have a lot less head slots but EW is just as effective.

ECCM in it's current form is rubbish. It needs a buff along with other tweaks.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I dont understand why you guys think that you have a good reason to complain.  If we are really blobing you and if ewar is so OP, then why arent you using it.  You litterally are complaining about something that you have access too, but dont use, or use correctly.  Its not like CIR has some *** monopoly on bots that you dont have access to.  Also, your argument is you are wrong because you are CIR.  I often say everyone has the same opportunities, but not everyone has the sames access to common sense.  Syndic is showing you results from testing on the test server and you guys come back with him that he is wrong because he is in CIR and his side is jaded.   Test it 2 eccm, on the test server and its like a 1 in 6 chance to jam.  Thats 50 seconds for you to continue firing.  Why have the ewar then if you can only stop the person 10 percent of the time.  Its broken and to be honest will make ewar useless in the game.  An issues which you should be concerned with.  IN the long run it will not help you to scream so loudly that something is broken. Especially when you had access to it all along and just dont use it .

79 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 22:56:13)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Why do you feel the change is geared right against CIR?

We all play the same game with the same bots, just like you said. I am completely maxed out Vagabond and Cameleon pilot and on my way to maxed Zenith.. and I still say it's OP as ***.


Mastablasta wrote:

Test it 2 eccm, on the test server and its like a 1 in 6 chance to jam.  Thats 50 seconds for you to continue firing.

1 in 6 chance ONLY if heavy has 5 ECCM-s fitted and the EW mech has 0 tuners. Painting EW overpowered(suppressors too!) and ECCMs underpowered more clearly is beyond me. I hope the devs make the right call.

1/6 chance = ~16,5%

EW resistance: 85 + (75 * 5) = 460
EW strength: 74

74 / 460 = ~16%

80 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-31 22:39:59)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

@Syndic

Feel free to repeat these tests with different configs. As for the results ... no, the bots weren't jammed 100% of the time, but i'd argue that they were still rendered ineffective. Also, you could use all 4 ecms and increase the chance of completely jamming both bots. Problem is, this wasn't really needed. Sure, the vaga died both times, but it also jammed the Kain sufficiently to cancel out all damage it did (as long as the injector was active). It also held its own for two and a half minutes against a Mesmer Mk2.

We do agree on the solution though. Look at tuners, then see how stuff works out. Limiting ecms to two per bot also seems like a reasonable step beyond that. Oh, and the entropy thing, of course.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

There is a difference between running the numbers, say a 4 second lock time, and getting jammed every 10 seconds.

In the real server, you have lag, INcreasing the potential re locking time greatly.

This 4 second lock time, more looks like 4.5 to 5 seconds, up to 6 seconds re-lock.  We all know this, and experience it all the time. 

Make no mistake, I do no argue to do anything about this, its rather its a natural buff to all ewar in general.

The Gifter
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

After doing some heavy thinking, the best thing to start out with would be to increase the cycle times of ECM's themselves.

From 10 seconds.

To 15 Seconds.

OR

Decrease the base Hw from 35 (T4)

To

Base Hw to 30 (T4)

The Gifter
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

how about god dam leave it alone

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84 (edited by Mastablasta 2014-06-01 01:08:09)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Merkle what you are proposing is better than whats on the test sever. Even though your idea is still to much of a nerf. The way it is now on test server. There wont be a use for ecm on the field if its so hard to jam.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Well people are freaking out for no good reason.

ECM needs balanced not nerfed.  Moving to 15 second cycle from a 10 second cycle seems like be best move to me personally.

I would then increase the acc amount in proportion to that as well.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

There is really no need to get all emotional about it, emotions tend to cloud your judgement which is never a good thing, in my humble opinion.

The Gifter
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I personally wished the tuners were removed.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I would rather not remove content if at all possible, and in this case I think its more then possible to bring them into balance.

Start with ECM's themselves and bring tuners more into line of where they should be.

The Gifter
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

What about tuners working on ECCM?

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90 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-06-01 16:09:54)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Merkle wrote:

I would rather not remove content if at all possible, and in this case I think its more then possible to bring them into balance.

Start with ECM's themselves and bring tuners more into line of where they should be.

So make ECM useless without tuners and thus even more difficult to fit head slots? Hello ictus

And your 15 second idea is a massive nerf regardless what words you use to describe it.

Devs leave ecm/Sup mods and sensor strength alone.

If you have to do anything adjust tuners. Maybe throw a dog a bone and add buff to ECCM mods with small % EP extension. But I'm still not convinced it's necessary.

Sparking to other games

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Jita wrote:

What about tuners working on ECCM?

ECCM itself is a kind of "tuning". Its only effecct is the modification of an attribute.

a 15s cycle on ECM is a 50% nerf (by hungarian math).
tweaking the numbers based on the T4 is a even bigger nerf of the stages below. (best example - ERP nerf)

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92 (edited by Burial 2014-06-01 13:25:57)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I actually agree with Merkle and think the base EW strength should be lowered on ECMs and Suppressors. I did some Science™ with different ECCM strengths and 2 ECCM minimum were still very often a requirement.

Devs, think about lowering the ECM and suppressor strength and you won't have to tweak ECCMs and tuners too much.

93 (edited by Lemon 2014-06-01 14:49:45)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Why is this only about ECM? Suppression is as hindering if not more so than ECM as a force multiplier.

EDIT: Clarification - Why are so many of you fixated on ECM and throwing theoretical numbers around like you know whats best?

What makes your short sighted idea of balance any better than mine? Lets get some effort in to these rants folks.

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Did even more thinking on the topic. 

With Armor resits you see a point system in place.  Where you add points to the specific (active hardeners), or non specific (Uni Hardener) and then your percent resist goes up.  However you can never reach 100 Percent.

I think if you would employ the same system with ECM Hw you would get excellent results.  Some values would need to be changed.  So skills would boost your overall point value in Hw, and you would then get your hit chance.

Tuners would add in a set amount of points, pushing you tward that increased hit chance. 

This balances not only ECM but Tuners as well.  This same system could be done with suppression just as well.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Opposed to any change that forces use of tuners to be effective.

Devs just scrap ew tuners as another failed add - on. They have only proven to be an issue.

Yes, remove them from game completely. No need to rework the math on the whole system to avoid this 'magical' 100% fit.

Sparking to other games

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Why would you scrap something that can be save so easy.

That system re works and balances everything perfectly.

Nothing magical about it just some simple math.
It may even  result in a minor buff in the lower tiers of ECM.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

hey merkle, you could call it by its name: "dimishing returns"

and there are many around here vocal about how it would reduce the ability to min-max a robot fit, instead it will making one having best of everything (not that i support their sentiment)

as long as its not as pointless as the armor resist system. (in no video footage with syndic as FC i have ever heard him calling which weapon/damage type should focus on someone, nor did i ever experinced someone asking to bring anything else but the universally perfect ammo types to a PvP roam)

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98 (edited by BandwagonX9000 2014-06-02 13:02:55)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

1. Just as expected. Lol
2. ECMs? When everyone and their mother knows it's suppressors the ones being OP? Lol.
3. "New" EW player utility vs 1 no skill required ECCM? Lol.
4. Not being able to shoot due to EW Bad? Not being able to shoot due to accu raping good? Lol.
5. Accu based mechs being able to mostly ignore accu drain instead? Lol.
6. Not being able to shoot bad. Not being able to move good? Lol.
7. Zenith+ECM+Tuner >> Vaga, unaddressed, unmentioned, and instead get changes in response to whining? Lol.
8. EW Mech+Boosted ECCM? Lol.
9. Proposals of moving ECM (ofc, not supressors) to 10s to 15s? Lol.
10. The idea that fitting an ECCM should make a max skilled EW platform a mere nuisance, idea apparently shared by the devs? Lol.

Whatever. Between this and the RMT thing it is clear you have no idea how the game works or are in the Spacebar FTW Club no matter the consequences down the line. It's also clear that whoever did the balancing previously was not you.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

BandwagonX9000 wrote:

1. Just as expected. Lol
2. ECMs? When everyone and their mother knows it's suppressors the ones being OP? Lol.
3. "New" EW player utility vs 1 no skill required ECCM? Lol.
4. Not being able to shoot due to EW Bad? Not being able to shoot due to accu raping good? Lol.
5. Accu based mechs being able to mostly ignore accu drain instead? Lol.
6. Not being able to shoot bad. Not being able to move good? Lol.
7. Zenith+ECM+Tuner >> Vaga, unaddressed, unmentioned, and instead get changes in response to whining? Lol.
8. EW Mech+Boosted ECCM? Lol.
9. Proposals of moving ECM (ofc, not supressors) to 10s to 15s? Lol.
10. The idea that fitting an ECCM should make a max skilled EW platform a mere nuisance, idea apparently shared by the devs? Lol.

Whatever. Between this and the RMT thing it is clear you have no idea how the game works or are in the Spacebar FTW Club no matter the consequences down the line. It's also clear that whoever did the balancing previously was not you.

+1 to EVERYTHING HE JUST *** SAID.

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100

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

a lot of this could be balanced by adding line of sight to these modules and they wouldn't be so "overpowered" I will say theirs a lot a viable solutions posted here to balance the modules but for the sake of argument. ...

Ictus energy warfare is limited by line of sight   
Long range demobs are limited by line of sight / short range demobs have a base range of ~ 200m with good skills.

bandwagonX9000 wrote:

4. Not being able to shoot due to EW Bad? Not being able to shoot due to accu raping good? Lol.
5. Accu based mechs being able to mostly ignore accu drain instead? Lol.
6. Not being able to shoot bad. Not being able to move good? Lol.

^ is short sighted and does not represent actual application of the modules mentioned.

IF ECM / Suppression was separated in to  4 types (green, blue, yellow, white) and were designed to work against their designated race yellow = theolodica and so on (white wold be indy) there would be more balance in the system.

ECM / Suppression needs to be brought into the 3 way racial balance.

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